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flush paired board

  
 
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asdpikas
Old 09-20-2008, 06:55 AM     Post subject: flush paired board #1 (permalink)  
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CO is 52/2/0.5
SB is 50/30/2.5
BB is an unknown fish

1/2 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($45.75)
UTG 1 ($66.50)
CO ($73.25)
Hero ($48.75)
SB ($118.25)
BB ($13.93)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, CO calls

Flop: (8.0 SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, CO calls

Turn: (6.0 BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB raises, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, BB 4-bets, CO calls, Hero calls

River: (18.0 BB, 3 players)
BB bets, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls (all in)
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DrivingDog
Old 09-20-2008, 07:51 AM     Post subject: Re: flush paired board #2 (permalink)  
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Not a good time to 3bet the turn IMO. You can't face anyone with calling two cold, no-one's going to fold Ac or Kc (and they won't pay you off if they miss the river), and you're going to feel a bit sick if the turn gets capped.

You'll be much happier letting the other players spew with the second best hands.

There's times to get aggressive on the turn but this isn't one of them...

p.s. if BB is unknown how does that make him a fish?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 09-20-2008, 08:35 AM     Post subject: Re: flush paired board #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Not a good time to 3bet the turn IMO. You can't face anyone with calling two cold, no-one's going to fold Ac or Kc (and they won't pay you off if they miss the river), and you're going to feel a bit sick if the turn gets capped.

You'll be much happier letting the other players spew with the second best hands.

There's times to get aggressive on the turn but this isn't one of them...

p.s. if BB is unknown how does that make him a fish?
I raise the turn for value, not to kick them out. Especially since they wont pay off if they miss the river, i'd rather get more money in now.

My reasoning went like this during the hand. Please correct, comment.

PF is a basic isolation against a passive fish. It's the bottom of my open-raise range for the button, but since he is sooo passive and plays 50+% of his hands, i think its +EV

I'm not happy to get it 4ways but the flop is great for me givin me overs, gutshot and FD, so i bet for value and get calls by everyone (good result).
Cant put villains on anything yet.

Turn brings my flush but pairs the board, when they check to me again, i bet for value. BB raises, which seems like a shutout raise. He is also short stacked so i know he will stick his money in with any piece of the board. CO coldcalls which tells me nothing given his stats, he could still have 5x, 2x, 4x, 3x, Acx, Kcx, any PP...
So i raise for value.
When BB 4bets, i'm a bit worried but since he is a short stacked fish i cant give him credit for a FH. CO calls again which still means any of the above mentioned hands.

River is good for me since it hits Acx and 3x hands. I expect BB to put what he has left in the pot but CO surprises me by raising (given his stats), and my dilemma is wether to 3bet or just call. He either hit w Acx, or 3x or was sloplaying a monster on us, so i choose to just call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
p.s. if BB is unknown how does that make him a fish?
He has played EVERY hand since he sat down, losing pot after pot, so my HUD still shows no stats, but he is DEFINITELY a big fish
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Chopper
Old 09-21-2008, 03:23 AM #4 (permalink)  
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isnt this a better overlimping situation since SB tends to be aggressive. we dont mind taking a 3-4 way flop with this hand on the button, but i dont think we want to bloat it preflop to isolate when SB is also so loose.

and, i assume dog meant that Ax would bluff the river on a miss if we let him? i dont see that happening, so isnt it better to go for value on this turn and just call a river donk if the 4th spade falls?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 09-21-2008, 04:24 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Short answer: 3betting the turn with the 6th nuts is spew.

Long answer: I think you need to respect BB's first turn raise a bit more. It's a multiway pot. CO cold calls the raise and so could have some outs against you. If you 3bet and BB has you beat he will hammer you and you are going to be drawing dead. Not fun.

Calling the raise on the river after all that turn action is only recommended if you hate money.

And yeah I'm not crazy about bloating the pot with Q6s preflop either. Overlimping seems better.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 09-21-2008, 06:12 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Hand looks fine. BB is repping a flush and we beat a lot of those, but lose to fair number.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 09-21-2008, 04:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand looks fine. BB is repping a flush OR BETTER and we beat SOME of those, but lose to fair number.
fyp.

He's been playing every hand, so he could have 55, 44, 52, 42, 22, as well as AcXc and KcXc, all of which have us drawing dead. On the river AA (unlikely) and A2 pull ahead of us as well. So if this passive player decides to suddenly start spewing with JcXc or worse and we don't get full value well them's the breaks.

Bottom line is we're just not strong enough to 3bet the turn here, and certainly not strong enough to call the turn cap AND a raise on the river.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 09-21-2008, 05:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand looks fine. BB is repping a flush OR BETTER and we beat SOME of those, but lose to fair number.
fyp.

He's been playing every hand, so he could have 55, 44, 52, 42, 22, as well as AcXc and KcXc, all of which have us drawing dead. On the river AA (unlikely) and A2 pull ahead of us as well. So if this passive player decides to suddenly start spewing with JcXc or worse and we don't get full value well them's the breaks.

Bottom line is we're just not strong enough to 3bet the turn here, and certainly not strong enough to call the turn cap AND a raise on the river.
We're getting 11-1 on the river closing the action, dude. (SB has no more chips and cant 3bet)
We have a good hand against 2donks, i just dont see the fold here.
The turn is another story, but folding the river?????
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DrivingDog
Old 09-21-2008, 05:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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It just looks like spew to me, that's all I'm saying. And I could be wrong. If I knew everything I'd be winning a lot more money.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 09-21-2008, 10:34 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
It just looks like spew to me, that's all I'm saying. And I could be wrong. If I knew everything I'd be winning a lot more money.
LOL, dont take it harsh man, u know i really appreciate your answers!
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