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Flopping montsers-- am I being too cute?

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drtofu66

12-21-2005, 10:03 PM Post subject: Flopping montsers-- am I being too cute?

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Probably low content, but I was wondering if I was getting too cute/stupid with these. The reason I'm posting is that they're hands that actually don't get paid off all that great. I'm wondering if I'm actually getting paid off less by doing stuff like this. I am doing these with some reads, though, thanks to PT.

Hand 1:

UTG, UTG+1, MP1, MP2 are LPP fish, MP3 is a TPA rock, CO is a LPA. No read on the BB. About as great of a situation as they come with 2nd nuts, so many limpers and fish and a decent drawing board that would lead to nowhere. Hoping someone has the flush draw, 45, or pocket pair. I was going to lead the turn but when the A came and BB leading the flop, I went for the c/r hoping someone else had an A. I was hoping to trap a couple of extra big bets (though that may be a mistake if another A hits). But with so many possble dead contributors to the pot I slowplayed again. BB probably has a 2 when he leads the turn. Pot's getting bloated, I'm inviting trouble trying to let any fish with a PP hang around without odds but hey-- I wasn't expecting to get paid off on this one.

I usually play these straight up and lead, but the BB might actually have a 2 and scare some out of this one if he raises my lead. Just wondering if I should have lead the flop. And I realize that this hand is somewhat vulnerable if someone else catches their set on the river but the potential for a monster pot was too tempting.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3

, 3

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 2

, 3

, 2

(8 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11 BB) A

(6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, CO folds, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (20 BB) K

(2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 22 BB

Hand 2:

The flip side. BB is a LPP fish. Scary board if you don't have a K or QJ. I don't get paid here but I'm not so sure I would have even leading the flop with a lone LPP villain. I should've lead here hoping he'd have a moment of insanity and try and force me off the pot, but I'd been stealing his blind and pots all along without a fight by open raising PF and c-betting so I was preety sure he'd fold again to a lead which is why I acted weak here. I was hoping I'd inspire him a little by showing some weakness. No dice.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

, T

.
8 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K

, T

, K

(2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 3 BB

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Demiparadigm

12-21-2005, 11:05 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Hand 2 is ridiculous.
You say you have been raising and c betting a lot, but when you flop something now you check the flop? Any non-braindead opponent doesn't see this as weakness.
Hand1 bet the flop. the last thing you want is to check raise a late position bettor and force the field with 2 cold.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

drtofu66

12-22-2005, 01:52 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Hand 2 I'm pretty sure I don't get paid at all no matter what I do. Maybe I squeeze one BB at most. This is Party 0.5/1 so I don't rule out brain-deadedness.

Exhibit A: MP3 is a TPA rock, SB is a LPP fish.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, K

.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K

, K

, 8

(3 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5 BB) A

(3 players)
SB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, SB raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (17 BB) Q

(3 players)
SB calls $0.47 (All-In), MP3 calls, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 19.47 BB

Results:
SB has Qc 9s (two pair, kings and queens).
MP3 has Jc Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Hero has Kd Kh (four of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.47 BB.

I 3-bet PF for pete's sake! If my AJo get's 3-bet PF I get the hell out of dodge with that board, along with every FTR reader here. Suddenly SB sees some weakness and tries to donk-raise and steal this pot. You gotta love Party. I know I'm going to get bitched at for initially just calling MP3's turn hoping for the overcall. Maybe this belongs in tales of poker, but all things considered I was lucky to get one more BB out of this hand, let alone the end result.

Exhibit B:

This I'll agree that I should've bet the turn but again, I didn't expect to get paid here.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5

, 5

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9

, K

, 5

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 2

(4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Results:
SB has Jc Kc (two pair, kings and fives).
UTG+2 has Ah Kd (two pair, kings and fives).
Hero has 5s 5d (four of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.50 BB.

rubixstreub

12-22-2005, 02:01 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 887

when you're last to act and it's checked around to you, everyone expects you to bet... I think you can continue to safely hide your hand when you bet last to act

Come give me advice.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-58488.htm

drtofu66

12-22-2005, 02:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

when you're last to act and it's checked around to you, everyone expects you to bet... I think you can continue to safely hide your hand when you bet last to act

Yeah, I see where I missed a bet. I overlooked both the BB and SB's check-2 bet call. They obviously like their hand a lot and it would have been getting 7.5:1 back to them. They definitely would've called (but maybe wouldn't have gone apeshit reraising the river. Who knows?). They probably had me on a flush draw/bluff.

I know this is kind of a ridiculous thread (sorry) and without reads I probably don't do stuff like this.

dsaxton

12-22-2005, 02:47 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

I agree with Demi on both hands.

Hand 1 I would bet and "troll for a deuce," and also to charge some players who would like to draw dead with straight or flush draws. Check-raising risks eliminating players, which is precisely what you don't want to do in this situation. You want as many players in the pot as possible, and betting out will help get them committed.

Hand 2 I would also bet. All you're doing by checking is rousing suspicion and telling him to check behind without a K, which causes you to miss a bet against a lot of hands. Just bet and hope he has a K. Tendencies like these also lead to fairly obvious betting patterns ("I bet out with pretty good / ok hands, but I check really strong ones."). If your hand is shown down, your opponents will be less able to read you if you had bet as opposed to if you had checked.

drtofu66

12-22-2005, 06:06 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

For hand 1, if it had been checked around to the button or CO who opened the betting I would have just called in the hope that most behind me would call also. I realize how lucky I got that the BB opened the betting to let things play out as they did.

The river play here was probably dumb and could've cost me a BB, but I pegged this guy as a little overaggressive who would pounce at a sign of weakness. If not for the read I lead out.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4

, A

.
UTG calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5

, 4

(5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, CO folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 3

(3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) Q

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results:
Hero has 4h Ad (three of a kind, fours).
BB has 7s 7d (two pair, sevens and fours).
UTG+1 doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB.

From tonight:
This guy just wasn't going to get paid. For my part there was no way in hell I was putting another cent in this pot. I would've folded the flop at any kind of bet. I guess he was hoping I had a big PP. I don't know if he was pissed or proud because he showed his hand.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with T

, K

.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8

, 8

, 3

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results:
No showdown.
Button has 8h 8s (four of a kind, eights).
Button wins 5.50 BB. [/color]

rubixstreub

12-22-2005, 01:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 887

Hand 1:
Completing from the SB with Ace/rage is a bad idea in my opinion.

Hand 2:
See, button should have bet the flop. People don’t mind calling small streets with crap, but when the price doubles they’ll usually walk away if they haven't hit. He might have got 2 small bets from SB and UTG, and it all adds up.

Come give me advice.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-58488.htm

Romulus141

12-22-2005, 01:55 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Oxford, PA

Posts: 118

For the last two hands just posted:

I tend to fold these both pre-flop. For the A4o, it may only be half a bet to see the flop, but you're going to be dominated quite often. Having just a pair of fours sucks on most boards, and pairing your ace is marginal, since you can easily be outkicked. You got lucky and flopped trips this time around. It won't happen often enough. Save yourself the temptation of continuing with it and just dump the hand. (If the pot is huge, like, all the players have limped in before you, then it can be profitable to complete and see the flop, but be prepared to dump it on the flop in most cases. With everyone in the pot, you need two-pair or better most of the time).

K10 off-suit isn't a great hand either. I've been burned too much by that hand. It definitely isn't a raising hand if people have limped behind you. It can be dominated, and it's difficult to make a straight.

For me, I only enter the pots with these off-suit hands under the following conditions:
1.) The pot is getting large (5-6 active people at least, none of them are "all-in"), I'm in SB, its half a bet to complete, and the BB probably won't raise. However, I'm dumping this on the flop often, even if I make one-pair, because it probably won't win. I need to flop two-pair, trips, or a wheel straight for this to be profitable.
2.) I'm in late position (CO or Button) or in the SB, and the action is folded to me. These hands are good for blind stealing, so give it a try.

BTW, if either of these hands were suited, then they're much more limp-worthy, possibly even a raise depending on the situation.

Kessler

12-22-2005, 09:32 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

I haven't had a ton of experience with flopping quads, but when it has happened in the past, (Aces) I've check/called to the river to let everyone catch up with me. The flop looked intimidating, and because I've got both A's, the deck is crippled.

Does play change depending on the rank of your quads?

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

STIdrivr

12-22-2005, 10:00 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Southern california

Posts: 580

it sort of depends on the rank of the quads and the board.
If you have poket 5's and the flop comes A 5 5 you can safely bet or raise cause if they have the A they will pay you off and if they dont they may never pay you off even if a they catch a K cause the A is out there. Also if you have something like pocket 10's and the flop comes 10 10 J with 2 of same suite you should be betting because people will call with draws but if they miss before you bet they arnt putting anymore money in.

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