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| asdpikas |
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villains are fishy bad players but i dont have real stats on them... Even though it worked out nice, i am not sure about this hand, i just figured the pot was so big and so many draws didnt get there... comments, please. Is 13.2-1 enough odds to fire into 2players? I really think my line is fishy too, should i 3bet the flop? 1/2 Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: Hero ($50.25) CO ($50.75) BTN ($48.75) SB ($8.00) BB ($28.25) Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 5 players) Hero is UTG   Hero raises, CO calls, BTN 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls Flop:    (12.5 SB, 4 players)BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets, BB raises, Hero calls, CO calls, BTN calls Turn:  (10.2 BB, 4 players)BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, 1 fold, BB calls River:  (13.2 BB, 3 players)BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB folds Final Pot: 13.2 BB Hero wins 13.8 BB ( won +9.2 BB ) BB lost 3.5 BB CO lost 3.5 BB BTN lost 2.5 BB |
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | |||||
| dsaxton |
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| This is weird spew. You're representing nothing and are probably getting called down by ace high. | ||||
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| Rubeskies |
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| Yeah, I really don't like the turn bet. What were you hoping to accomplish? Did you think it was for value? Because you open yourself up to a raise that may knockout players and hurt your value. | ||||
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| Ragnar4 |
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no... flatting the flop and getting active on the turn is a clear sign that you have a set or better. With the PFR he could be Repping Aces, kings, or a set of 8's or 7's in a 5 handed game pretty easily. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Chopper |
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i know where you are playing this way, but that doesnt excuse, imo, the crazy spewage. c'mon, mang....you better than this. raise pf...fine, i guess, because we know worse will call on this site. it has 40% equity against three other random hands. but, its post flop where you run into issues. you know you have to connect pretty hard with these stations. calling two cold on flop? i can see it, but i dont like it. i doubt your overs are clean or strong enough to win. 3betting would just be adding to the spew, but i think its best if you want to continue....and, i really wouldnt like that. turn and river are just really bad, imo. i cant see what you are repping. and, i cant see them folding. i still cant believe they did....especially from this site. "firing the last bullet" is definitely what won you the pot. and, sometimes, bluffing is the ONLY way to win one. so, when in it this deep, i guess you did the right thing.....i just wouldnt get this deep with this crap. nice victory, and you're right, a fishy line. but, you got away with it. i wouldnt be doing it again until about the year 2020, though...lol. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| asdpikas |
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Even on turn, i have my share of equity |
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| Chopper |
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i have you on 6 clean outs after that flop raise you COLD CALLED. you have to know your overs wont win alone, and you have to be worried about any diamond that falls. like i said, i can kind of see it. but, i think its spew. i dont think your equity is as much as you think it is.....and, if its as big as you say, why didnt you 3bet the flop? you have more equity than players. shouldnt that have been a value 3bet? just my opinion. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| asdpikas |
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| asdpikas |
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The line to take is the question. I kinda got it all wrong in the sense that it's either the aggro route or the passive one, but i seem to have chosen passive on flop and aggro later (not great, it's one or the other) BTW, this hand is from Full Tilt, is that the site u refer to? |
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| Chopper |
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no, i thought you were on a prop site. i didnt know you played much at FTP anymore. no offense, but being at FT makes playing J9s utg worse, imo. those guys are rather tight and i cant see J9s having any edge pf, except to mix things up. and, even then, i cant see the value in mixing things at a site you dont play religiously, where you know all the regs. again, just my opinion. sorry to seem "on your jock" lately. i'm not....you know that. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| asdpikas |
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Quote:
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It's one of the hands i started playing more often after reading stox book and i feel quite comfy with. Against tighter players, if an ace flops, u can rep it, and get a lot of c-bets work since u raised from utg. And when u hit a big hand u may get tons of action since they wont put u on it. Of course, if u whiff and get any action, it goes straight to the muck, no questions asked (same as many other hands). Against fish like the ones in this hand (table selection at FTP is eaaaasy) where u may easily get multiway pots... Well, its a pretty good hand multiway. Plays easy enough and u usually know where ur at, since in a multiway pot u go to SD with at least 2pair or better most of the time, u shouldnt get trapped with a TPGK hand as u may with an ATo kinda hand. |
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| Chopper |
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my only hope is to hit a multiway hand with it, which means i need to connect with 2pr or a draw. my fish dont allow me to rep the A and they chase overs like KQ when i hit a J. so, it loses punch for me, most times. therefore, its a blind stealing hand only...at my stakes. thats where i was coming from. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Actually, 3 off the button stoxtrader's book suggests playing it | ||||
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| DrivingDog |
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Stox's opponents don't habitually cold call an UTG raise with any Ace or any two broadway cards or anything in the BB, then call down to the river with any pair. Those kind of tendencies in your opponents dramatically reduce the value of a hand like J9s in early position. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| asdpikas |
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Still, imo, it plays well enough postflop and if u are beating the level, u should be able to evaluate when to let go of it. |
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| asdpikas |
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| DrivingDog |
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Ah, confidence is a wonderful thing. Makes you play too many hands and quote yourself in poker forums. I wonder if you've ever looked at how those kinds of hands perform UTG in PT...? |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| asdpikas |
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if i quoted myself it was by mistake... i'm not that egocentric 
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| asdpikas |
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I believe sample size will be a big issue, (only 125k hands - 22times utg) but here goes: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...AkXnb8LW-QjMgg Of the 22 times i got the hand, i raised 6 times and mucked 16 times so it's a bit early to say, but it does perform well in all other positions which is a good sign, nothing conclusive. Edit: looking at T9s and JTs, both with more trials, both winners utg for me... so it does look ok |
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| asdpikas |
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LOL I've just realized!! In this hand, i'm in the hijack actually, where J9s is a winner for me in about 50 trials (62 times dealt) at 1.23BB/hand |
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy. When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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| Chopper |
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hey dog? i seem to remember awhile ago you got into a debate with Fnord over playing some SC's up front? i think you said you like to raise 98s and T9s from UTG because they are winners....for you. and, that you used those for balance against your bigger premium hands. you still doing that? maybe not J9s, for you, but maybe you could also shoot some evidence into this thread and combine with asp to get a bigger sample? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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First of all, Fnord's an NL donk so there's no reason to listen to him... Second, I wouldn't sit at a table with a bunch of habitual cold callers to my left if I could possibly avoid it. Third, if I somehow lost my mind and did sit there, I wouldn't raise J9s except in the CO (maybe) or Btn (or SB if it was folded around). Finally, to answer Chopper's question, the short answer is I don't have anywhere near a large enough sample size to give a reliable estimate. I'll give a longer answer in the next post.... |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| asdpikas |
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| DrivingDog |
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I have a small sample of JTs, J9s, T9s, 98s, all of which I raise 100% UTG in the games I play in. My sample would be bigger but my computer and PT have been taking turns self-destructing in the past few months. ..............times...........bb/100 JTs ..........10...............-0.54 J9s...........13..............+0.34 T9s...........19..............+0.15 98s...........12..............+1.01 all hands....54..............+0.26 Practically useless given the sample size (the fact that JTs performs the worst is a big hint to that fact, another hint is the fact that my biggest winner at UTG so far is 66 at 2.34BB/100). With suited conn's you probably need at least 300 trials to get anywhere near a reliable sample. I haven't actually done an analysis on this so take that figure with a grain of salt - but you can see the same thing in Stox's book (p. 264-5) where 54s>64s>65s even over samples of about 100 trials each. There are a lot of other anomalies in his data as well throughout the book, even with fairly large samples. The problem is further complicated by the fact that the data do not follow a normal distribution, as the centre is severely under-represented (by definition you can't win or lose less than 1 BB when you raise UTG). This makes normal parametric procedures like a t-test untenable, and it isn't obvious to me what other procedure would work with data of this type. I'm actually going to try to find out if there's a way to do this.... |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Chopper |
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dude, i know i asked for it, but... you are a chart dork, huh? i consider myself one, but your answer just left my brain burning. and, i have NEVER looked very hard at Stox's charts because he explained them well enough to me in the text. i agree with the sample size, but thanks for providing it anyway. i dont play at sites with enough volume to bail on a table that has chronic c2c'rs (call two cold) on my right. they are everywhere, and its also a product of "level." but, i like the selection. good reminder to never stop that. but, maybe that's why i still play low and you are at 3/6. but, i am going to continue to pretend its bankroll related and has nothing to do with your spot-on answers to my posts and our respective skill levels. oh, and chart dork was meant as an endearing term, not a slam. chart dorks have bigger dicks than porn stars....we all know that one. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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| No problem, I don't bruise easily. And yeah, I am pretty much an archetypal nerd. At least the chicks dig it when you're past 21. | ||||
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| asdpikas |
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So, we dont have tons of data but the data we have all points in the good direction (profitable) regarding raising those hands 3 off the button or less? I'll keep raising them until proven wrong, then This is interesting, i mean the comparison, and i've been checking some more hands on PT... Havent made any conclusions yet, but hopefully i will, and share them with u guys. |
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy. When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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| Rubeskies |
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| DrivingDog |
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EDIT: I said 'right' in my original post when I meant 'left'. This should make more (or some) sense now Unless you interpret 'habitual' as meaning doing it 100% of the time, having them on your left is not good. If you are UTG and have three people to your left that each cold call on average 25% of your open raises, that means usually one will cold call when you open raise. If it's the player to your immediate left, this will encourage the other two to cold call as well, which encourages more cold calling and/or calls from the blinds. This will put you OOP and bloat the pot preflop, all of which make most of your range difficult to play postflop unless you connect with the board (which you usually won't) or have a monster (which you usually won't). These players tend also to not fold their blinds, making stealing much less lucrative. Much better to have nitty players on your left. In this case, your open-raises will often result in a number of folds to the BB (who can either fold, which earns you an automatic .75 BB, or call and fold most flops, which earns you 1 BB). Either one is a superior outcome for almost every hand you are dealt. These tough players will also sometimes 3bet, which will normally result in getting HU with dead money in the pot as opposed to a 3 or 4 ways pot. Your hand will be much easier to play because their 3betting range is so narrow. Loose cold callers to your right are another matter. They should be welcomed with open arms because it will now be you who is getting good odds to join the pot with speculative hands. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Chopper |
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i may be dyslexic, but i think you guys want looseies and cold callers on your immediate RIGHT. that way you see what they will do before you act, and you have position when you do....allowing the speculative hands to be played w/ great odds. when the loosies and stations are on your left, life is a bitch! you cant enter any pot because you know they are coming, too. you cant pick blinds because they over defend them. however, the one plus is that you can often times limp speculatives like AXs and SC's and small pps very cheaply...often open limping them, letting another player four seats away from you raise the pot and bloat it for your implieds to take over....all thanks to the loosies that call two and three cold with crap. the aggros and tighties, you want them on your LEFT. they will give up blinds and narrow fields for you both pre and post flop. i think you said right a couple times when you meant to say left. if i am wrong, please correct me. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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ha ha no i'm the one who's dyslexic. I'll edit my posts so they make sense. sorry. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Rubeskies |
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In perfect world you'd prefer the cold callers on your right. BUT, players who cold call a lot are generally very BAD. This is good for you. So even if they're on the left, I'd rather have them then a good player. So what if they all come along when you raise? They are making MISTAKES. When your opponents make mistakes, you win as long as you adjust properly. Yes, you have to tighten up a bit. But for every bet that goes in preflop from your opponents with a worse hand, you make money. So if you just tighten your range up a bit in early position, then they'll be constantly calling with worse hands netting you tons of extra money. Yes your hands are a bit more difficult to play, but the goal is not to make the game easy. The goal is to make money. And when there are bad players making mistakes, your winrate goes up. You mention winning more blind steals. The goal is not to win the most pots. The goal is to win the most money. So if you win fewer pots but those pots that you do win are way bigger, then you've profited. Leaving a table with 3 habitual coldcaller to your left would be insane unless you can find a table easily with 3 to your right. But it sounds like you'd rather play at a table with 5 Rocks so that you could steal the blinds a lot instead of a table with a bunch of coldcallers to your left. That is crazy. |
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| asdpikas |
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Im getting used to that situation, and u just will have to play fit or fold on the flop, and passively draw to your overs/gutshots... When u hit, u are huuuuge cant get more oop than this: 2/4 Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($92.00) UTG+1 ($66.00) CO ($87.00) BTN ($49.00) Hero ($98.00) BB ($209.00) Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is SB   UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BTN calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BTN calls Flop:    (11.0 SB, 5 players)Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, 1 fold Turn:  (7.5 BB, 4 players)Hero bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, CO calls River: (10.5 BB, 3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls Final Pot: 13.5 BB UTG+1 shows:   CO shows:   Hero shows: Hero wins 13.0 BB ( won +9.5 BB ) UTG lost 1.5 BB UTG+1 lost 3.5 BB CO lost 3.5 BB BTN lost 1.0 BB or this: 2/4 Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($93.00) CO ($5.00) BTN ($88.00) SB ($190.00) Hero ($116.00) Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 5 players) Hero is BB   UTG calls, 1 fold, BTN calls, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, BTN calls, SB calls Flop:   (8.0 SB, 4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, BTN calls, SB calls Turn:  (6.0 BB, 4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, 1 fold, SB calls River:  (9.0 BB, 3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, SB calls Final Pot: 11.0 BB Hero shows: SB shows:  Hero wins 10.5 BB ( won +7.0 BB ) UTG lost 2.5 BB BTN lost 1.5 BB SB lost 3.5 BB |
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| DrivingDog |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Rubeskies |
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And I think this particular argument speaks to a fundamental point about table selection. I'd love to hear what specifically in my argument you disagree with so that we could discuss and maybe learn from each other. |
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| Chopper |
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dont forget...fish like me learn from opposing opinions, too. :swim: |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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It may be interesting to others but it's not to me. So unless I plan on moving down to .25/50 or lower why should I spend time and energy debating it? If you do it and it works for you, then it doesn't really matter whether anyone else agrees or not. Do whatever works for you. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Latest Poker News | |
| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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