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Figuring out where AQ is at in a re-raised pot.... ???

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NWNewell

11-21-2006, 03:54 PM Post subject: Figuring out where AQ is at in a re-raised pot.... ???

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Ok, so I'm bring this question over from another forum. It was resonably well debated by some, and had some "no-value-added stupid comments as well". Anyway... without getting into the details of the quality of the debate, here is the issue....

(it might broaden the debate too much, but this question applies to both FR and SH limit)

Hero has AQ (it could be AJ too) in early position and raises. It's folded to MP player who 3-bets and only the button calls. Hero calls.

Flop: A98(rainbow)

How do yo proceed?

What seems to be the typical line/argument and what I have been usually doing:
Check/Raise to help define your hand. You are screeming I have a TopPair (or maybe better) and saying, "Hey, I'm strong here" for 2 bets, And if he 3 bets, he's saying "I'm stronger than you", and you can probably assume he has you beat with a better kicker, and can probably fold (or maybe just call down depending on the type of player and whether you believe him).

The counter argument (which I think has some merrite and have been thinking about lately):
Bet out. And here is the argument:

Frist, what would the villain 3-bet against an EP raiser? I would say something like AA-TT, AKs, AK (and maybe throw in AQ, AJs, KQs, 99) would be standard.

Second, how would the typical player think about the EP raiser betting into him with an A98 flop with any of these hands. I'm assuming that a typical player would think, 'Ok, he probably doesn't have AA-QQ or he probably would have caped preflop. If you has JJ or TT, he has to that Ace with a 3-better and a coldcaller. It is likely that is raise/call would be a strong Ace, KQ, or maybe even KJs. But would he really bet this flop with KQ or KJs? He has to have an Ace."

Third, if he has KK-TT, he would probably have to feel he is beat with no odds and should fold the flop. If he has an Ace, he is probably thinking he needs at least AJ to continue due to my preflop raise. He may call down with AJ or AT. He will probably raise with AK, maybe AQ (maybe AJ)

So, finally... we could sermise that if he raises us, we are probably beat by AA or AK (maybe tied with AQ). If he calls down, we are probably ahead (or at worst tied).

Also, the main reason I've been thinking about this line is because, I seen several times recently that I have c/r in this spot (with AJ or AQ), only to see AK become scared and only call down. I don't want this to happen. I want AK to tell me I'm beat so I can possibily get out of the way. So, I was thinking that maybe betting out would be better at times rather than c/r and get sucked into betting the second best hand all the way to the river.

Now, I will say that I went and looked at some of my HH or recent and found these samples:

#1 ($3/$6 SH) Hero: AQ Flop: AJT
This first one is pretty scary for the villan I guess, and he could pretty easily be afraid of two pair or a flopped straight.

#2 ($1/$2 SH) Hero: AJ Flop: AQ7
The second the villian could easily be very affraid of two pair.

#3 ($3/$6) Hero: AQ Flop: AT3
The third is not as bad. There were two diamonds on the board and a third hit the turn. Perhaps the villian just played the flop weakly and possible flush froze him into calling down.

I saw one instance where I had AQ and the flop was A97. I c/r and the flop was 3-bet. I ended up calling down to AK.

So, perhaps I am being a little results oriented. But maybe the answer to this question is similar to most poker questions.... "depends!"

Maybe when the flop could be potentially scary for AK, we should bet out, as a c/r on an AJ7 board may scare AK into calling down for fear of two pair. But c/r with a A97 board may be a better plan.

I'm not sure, but I've been giving this situation a lot of thought. This uncofortable situation has caused me not to AJ and ATs as agressively as I would like preflop from the earlier positions (even through MP1) at FR.

Thoughts? Help?

Thanks!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

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euphoricism

11-21-2006, 08:22 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Erm. This is my standard spot for a check/call Check/call donkbet. Villain could have you beat, villain could be toast. You don't know, can't really know, and the only thing playing back in this spot will do is fold a worse hand and make you pay out the buttocks against a good hand.

Quote:

Third, if he has KK-TT, he would probably have to feel he is beat with no odds and should fold the flop. If he has an Ace, he is probably thinking he needs at least AJ to continue due to my preflop raise. He may call down with AJ or AT. He will probably raise with AK, maybe AQ (maybe AJ)

You dont want TT-KK to fold. You dont want TT-KK to fold. You DONT want TT-KK to fold. You dont want AJ to stop firing. You DONT want AJ to stop firing. (Seeing someone 3bet with AJo is pretty rare).

The question really hangs on what you perceive villains 3betting range to be. I would never fault anyone for going to showdown as cheap as possible in this spot, however.

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euphoricism

11-21-2006, 08:30 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Also, if I threebet you with AT+ and you donk into me on an Axx raggy rainbow board, im reraising you practically every single time. Therefore your donkbet has absolutely failed in its mission of information gathering. Hell, I'll probably pop you with KK and TT as well.

Donkbets are so often "please raise me so I can fold" plays, and you should play them accordingly -- and interestingly enough, you should often play them in the exact inverse way that intuition tells you to.

If villain is donkbetting a worse A into you hoping youll raise so that he can fold, you should absolutely NOT raise. And if villain is donkbetting a better A into you, you often -should- raise (assuming villain is thinking enough to lay down hands once he's involved. Many won't.)

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NWNewell

11-22-2006, 11:25 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Thanks, euphricism.

Let's talk about irony.... That is what I use to do in this kind of situation. Just call down. But primarily just because I didn't know what else to do. It wasn't until I started thinking more about my post flop play and trying to improve it that I started trying the c/r line to protect and define this hand. (but before I didn't know why I was only calling down, now I do

)

I just felt like this was kind of weak. It seemed like people who had AK,AQ, or AJ would continue betting, but people who had a pocket pair would give up after their flop was called often enough. So, it seemed like I usually would not collect too many more bets from the pocket pair anyway. And when playing against another Ace, I would only win about 40% of the time (with AQ ~50/50, with AJ ~30/70, or so). And when heads up, calling down in this spot with a 40% chance to win is about ~0.7bb or so.

I guess I was just figuring that since a pocket pair is often not going to give too many more bets and a weaker Ace (i.e. AJ vs my AQ) is probably going to call down anyway (even to a c/r), we might be able to increase our EV a little if we could figure out a way to get out of the way off AK.

I just felt like I was paying off AK way too much when I hand AQ or AJ. But perhaps I was being too results oriented (and only remembering the stinging times when I paid off AK).

But I'm starting to think the c/r like is a loosing play (ala the reason for this thread).

Perhaps, I'm over thinking this situation, probably due to being infected with the FPS virus

(FPS = Fancy Play Syndrome, and it is f***ing sucking my br dry

).

Sounds like the good old, WA/WB line is more appropriate. I guess I should be happy with my +EV call down, and not be so greedy... lol.

Thanks for the reply, euphoricism. I think I like the call down better, now that you've talked some sense into me. I think I agree... the much of our EV comes from when KK-TT keeps donking into us (and we are probably not going to be able to correctly get out of the way of AK often enough to get more EV than what we get from pocket pair donk bets)

Thanks again!

Any other thoughts?

PS

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Donkbets are so often "please raise me so I can fold" plays, and you should play them accordingly -- and interestingly enough, you should often play them in the exact inverse way that intuition tells you to.

And I can attest to that... I will often through out feeler bets to test the waters like that.... with KK or QQ, etc. "AAaahh, I'm a donkey!" Actaully, I already knew that... lol

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

littleogre

11-22-2006, 11:27 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

the following line may sound weak but i find that it makes me the most bets in the long term. This is assuming you are not against a passive calling station. Versus that kinda player i usually bet out.
flop=check call
turn=check call
river= check raise

NWNewell

11-22-2006, 11:30 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Post Error: Please delete this reply.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

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Figuring out where AQ is at in a re-raised pot.... ???

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