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fooo

08-16-2006, 03:29 PM Post subject: a few hands for review

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 33

Hero dealt 8s 6s on button
4 limpers, Hero limps, SB completes, BB checks.

[5.7 SB] 7d 6c 2s
5 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, 4 calls

[8 BB] 7d 6c 2s Kh
Checked around

[8 BB] 7d 6c 2s Kh Ad
Checked around

--> I feel like this is what SSHE, which I've just finished reading once, tells me to do -- pair + 2 backdoor draws gives me enough equity to call, so I should protect by raising.
-------
Hero dealt 88 in CO
Horrible, horrible UTG player w/ 100% VP$IP raises UTG, folded to Hero. Hero 3-bets. Horrible BN w/ maybe 75% VP$IP cold-calls. UTG caps, Hero, BN call.

[12 SB] 7s 4d 3c
UTG bets, Hero raises, BN calls, UTG calls.

[9 BB] 7s 4d 3c 9d
UTG checks, Hero bets, BN calls, UTG raises all-in, Hero, BN call.

[15 BB] 7s 4d 3c 9d Kh
Hero checks, BN bets, Hero calls.
-------
Hero dealt TT in SB
MP calls, BN raises, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, BN calls.

[8.7 SB] Kc 9h 5h
Checked around

[4.3 BB] Kc 9h 5h 8d
2 checks, BN bets, Hero raises, MP folds, BN calls

[8.3 BB] Kc 9h 5h 8d 3d
Hero bets, BN calls
--------
Hero dealt 88 in CO
Folded to MP player, who raises. Hero 3-bets. BB caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

MP is a loose raiser, range regardless of position goes down to KT/A9 type hands. BB legitimately seemed to cap out of annoyance and did not seem to have a hand.

[11 SB] As Kd Qd
2 checks, Hero bets, 2 calls.

[7 BB] As Kd Qd Qc
2 checks, Hero bets, 2 calls
[10 BB] As Kd Qd Qc 6h
2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP folds.

--> This feels very, very bad, but I was thinking I didn't mind wasting a few bets in a big pot with opponents playing so passively to see if I could fold out hands that I thought could be in their range like JJ/TT/KJ/KT

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Xanadu

08-16-2006, 04:04 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

I thought all were played fine but the last. 3-betting 88 in that spot isn't horrible, but betting it on an AKQ flop is just super-spewage.

kyc12

08-16-2006, 04:06 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

Micro tables?

Hope my comments are helpful:
1) limp is fine. On flop the pot is not big, so there's no reason to protect it. More like fold (you can call if you are sure no one c/r)

2/4) I'd fold preflop. Anyways 88 is not worth playing for 4bet against 2 opponents.

I may be able to add more comments if you can tell us more about the table

elipsesjeff

08-16-2006, 05:08 PM

#4 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

1 and 2 are good.

3 just bet the flop
4 AKQ is nasty for 88, but preflop i like.

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euphoricism

08-16-2006, 05:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Agree with jeff, but on hand 4 I dont HATE a flop bet, but DEFINITELY take the free card and fold the river UI.

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Xanadu

08-16-2006, 06:39 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Agree with jeff, but on hand 4 I dont HATE a flop bet, but DEFINITELY take the free card and fold the river UI.

Capped preflop 3way, and you don't hate an 88 bet on an AKQ board? I don't care how loose opponents are, this is bad bad bad. How often do both opponents have both cards J or lower and no JJ or TT? MP was put on a range of KT+, A9+. You might get a K or Q to fold, but it isn't worth it. I'd guess 90%+ you are behind, and less than 20% fold equity. To me, betting here is about as bad a mistake as you can make.

fooo

08-16-2006, 07:14 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 33

Thanks for the comments. Random comments in response:

This is live $3/$6. Yes, I know it's pretty much impossible to beat the rake -- I enjoy the game, am seeing lots of horrible players, and hope to do a little better than break-even. I think this seems pretty doable and has been so far.

KYC, you fold TT against one button raiser? Wow...

Table reads -- the last 3 hands where it was 3-handed were abnormally tight. So, loose games, opened by loose raisers, that were playing tight for the hands listed.

In hand #2, the pre-flop raiser had played literally every hand since I had sat down at the table. I wanted to get heads up with him by 3-betting. The cold-caller behind was also not a good player, as indicated by his cold-call pre-flop and on the flop with Q9.

In hand #3, it was too early for reads on the pre-flop raiser. Result: cards halfway in the muck, he makes a crying call with JJ. Yeah, I can see that betting out the flop is good now after I'd already taken control preflop.

In hand #4, as I mentioned, I was in late position against only one loose raiser.

I know 88 is not a strong hand, but in the rare situation where I'm in late position against only one loose raiser/bad player, I'll 3-bet this to isolate. Playing for 4 bets against 2 opponents was not the idea, playing for 3 bets so that I could go heads up against 1 (bad) opponent was. Obviously this didn't work as I had A5 and Q9 behind me playing as well, but I think it's generally OK.

Comments on hand #4:
This is what I was thinking. When the flop is checked to me, I want to see what kinds of hands are out there. My options are checking-folding or betting and seeing if I can get a better hand to lay down, as I agree that I'm 90%+ beat, probably even higher. I went with option #2. When the flop and turn are played passively, I think that it can't be any of your typical capped pre-flop hands as AA, KK and QQ must play more aggressively at some point. Maybe AK is worried about being up against a set on the flop or is waiting for the turn to raise. AQ/KQ will also have to play more aggressively at some point. Since the initial pre-flop raiser folded on the river, I'll have to assume that he was drawing to the straight with either JJ/TT/KJ/KT. I knew I was beat, but I also felt fairly certain that I could fold out some of the hands that beat me.

As for table reads, does the fact that the winner capped with A5o say enough about him? The weakness was easy for me to read, translating the weakness into top pair/board kicker was something I couldn't do. Anyway, yeah, I guess spewage... I knew I was behind but thought I had enough fold equity in a pot this big against what looked like could be drawing hands that were actually ahead of me. I guess the fact he's playing cards like that should be my big tip off that I shouldn't try to push this type of player off of a hand.

Is this idea of trying to protect my pot equity on drawing hands weakened by the fact that I'm still getting a lot of callers for two bets, as in hand #1?

Another example:
Hero dealt QsJd in BB.
5 limpers, Hero checks.

[4.7 SB] Kc Js 9h
SB bets, Hero raises, 3 callers, SB folds (lol).

[6.8 BB] Kc Js 9h 3d
Hero bets, 3 callers.

[7.8 BB] Kc Js 9h 3d 7c
3 checks, BN bets, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Results: BN shows Jd7h, wins with two pair, jacks and sevens.
I was expecting a king with a weak kicker, probably should've just bet the river?

OK, I did force them to make mistakes in calling on the flop and turn, maybe I should get used to the suck outs.

euphoricism

08-16-2006, 07:25 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Agree with jeff, but on hand 4 I dont HATE a flop bet, but DEFINITELY take the free card and fold the river UI.

I agree it ain't ideal, and definitely not 'good', but it is no way "as bad a mistake as you can make"

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euphoricism

08-16-2006, 07:27 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

I know 88 is not a strong hand, but in the rare situation where I'm in late position against only one loose raiser/bad player, I'll 3-bet this to isolate. Playing for 4 bets against 2 opponents was not the idea, playing for 3 bets so that I could go heads up against 1 (bad) opponent was. Obviously this didn't work as I had A5 and Q9 behind me playing as well, but I think it's generally OK.

"OK" nothing, this is an excellent play in most cases against a super fish.

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arkitekton

08-17-2006, 05:00 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Late to the party. I'll read other comments after I post.

Hand #1 -- Looks good. Sickening to get 4 calls to your raise, but there's no help for that.

Hand #2 -- very read dependent, but how about raising the all-in on the turn? Given the action you're probably ahead, so getting more money in the pot OR folding the button may well be right.

Hand #3 -- betting the flop seems right. If raised, folding is probably best, but you may buy the pot right here if no one has a K. It will be very difficult for someone without a king to call since they can have at most one overcard to the board.

Hand #4 -- folding preflop is a little better than 3-betting. While mp will raise, as you write, with KT and A9 (against which you're only slightly better than 50-50, albeit with position), his range presumably includes AA-99, against which you're behind. You'll also have more trouble getting away from your hand when you're behind than villain will. Too, as it happened, the action isn't over just because you 3-bet--also on the negative side is that you may run into a real hand behind you. The flop killed your hand, and while I sympathize with your hopes of folding the hands you mentioned, these don't seem like the kind of players who'll do other than check/call with hands like second pair.

kyc12

08-17-2006, 01:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooo

Thanks for the comments. Random comments in response:

This is live $3/$6.

Oh I need to play in one of these some days

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooo

In hand #2, the pre-flop raiser had played literally every hand since I had sat down at the table. I wanted to get heads up with him by 3-betting. The cold-caller behind was also not a good player, as indicated by his cold-call pre-flop and on the flop with Q9.

The idea is good, but if the table is this loose, your rasie lose value, so I won't do it again at that table. Try to find a strategy that works for the table you're playing at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooo

In hand #3, it was too early for reads on the pre-flop raiser. Result: cards halfway in the muck, he makes a crying call with JJ. Yeah, I can see that betting out the flop is good now after I'd already taken control preflop.
KYC, you fold TT against one button raiser? Wow...

Well it depends. Anyone for calling, and if the flop is not too scary, c/r and bet the turn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooo

Another example:
Hero dealt QsJd in BB.
5 limpers, Hero checks.

[4.7 SB] Kc Js 9h
SB bets, Hero raises, 3 callers, SB folds (lol).

[6.8 BB] Kc Js 9h 3d
Hero bets, 3 callers.

[7.8 BB] Kc Js 9h 3d 7c
3 checks, BN bets, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Results: BN shows Jd7h, wins with two pair, jacks and sevens.
I was expecting a king with a weak kicker, probably should've just bet the river?

OK, I did force them to make mistakes in calling on the flop and turn, maybe I should get used to the suck outs.

I don't see myself playing differently.

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