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sarbox68

10-24-2006, 08:15 AM Post subject: Feedback on playing sets/trips

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

I'm listing my sets/trips play from tonight's session. It was suggested that this will make it easier to isolate feedback around a specific issue... sortta following in Anosmic's footsteps.

This is all $1/2 Limit at Pokerroom. So here goes...

Hand 1:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 8

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls (1.5:1), 3 folds, Hero calls (2.5:1), SB calls (3.5:0.5), BB checks.

Flop: 8

(4SB, 4 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls (7:2), SB 3-bets, BB calls (11:1), Hero caps, SB calls (14:1), BB calls (15:1).

Turn: Q

(8BB, 3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero calls (11:2), SB 3-bets, BB calls (15:1), Hero calls (16:1).

River: K

(17BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls (18:1), SB calls (19:1).

Results:
Final pot: 20BB

Hand 2:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with K

UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB calls (10.5:3.5), BB folds, UTG+1 calls (14:2), Hero calls (16:1).

Flop: T

(17SB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls (20:2), UTG+1 calls (22:2), Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB calls (28:2), UTG+1 calls (30:2), Hero calls (32:1).

Turn: 3

(16.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls (17.5:1), Button raises, SB folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls (22.5:2), Button calls (24.5:1).

River: 8

(25.5BB, 3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls (26.5:1), Button raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls (31.5:2), Button caps, UTG+1 calls (35.5:1), Hero calls (36.5:1).

Results:
Final pot: 37.5BB

Hand 3:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is Button with 7

2 folds, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls (3.5:2), MP2 folds, MP3 calls (5.5:2), CO folds, Hero calls (7.5:2), SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls (11.5:1), MP1 calls (12.5:1), MP3 calls (13.5:1), Hero calls (14.5:1).

Flop: 3

(13.5SB, 5 players)
SB bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls (14.5:1), MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls (19.5:1).

Turn: T

(10.25BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls (11.25:1).

River: T

(12.25BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls (15.25:1).

Results:
Final pot: 16.25BB

Hand 4:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with 2

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls (1.5:1), UTG+2 calls (2.5:1), MP1 calls (3.5:1), MP2 calls (4.5:1), Hero calls (5.5:1), CO calls (6.5:1), 2 folds, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: 9

(7.5SB, 7 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls (8.5:1), CO raises, 4 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls (16.5:2), MP2 calls (18.5:1).

Turn: T

(9.75BB, 3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: K

(9.75BB, 3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, MP2 calls (10.75:1), Hero calls (11.75:1).

Results:
Final pot: 12.75BB

Hand 5:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with A

3 folds, MP1 calls (1.5:1), Hero calls (2.5:1), 3 folds, SB raises, BB folds, MP1 calls (4.5:1), Hero calls (5.5:1).

Flop: A

(5.5SB, 3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 3.75BB

Hand 6:

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with Q

2 folds, UTG+2 calls (1.5:1), MP1 calls (2.5:1), 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls (5.5:1), UTG+2 calls (6.5:1), MP1 calls (7.5:1).

Flop: 4

(8.5SB, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls (9.5:1), BB folds, UTG+2 calls (10.5:1).

Turn: 6

(5.75BB, 3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls (13.75:1).

River: A

(14.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls (15.75:1).

Results:
Final pot: 16.75BB

I left out the results this time like I guess I'm spose' to. At a high level, I won 3 of these and lost 3 of them. One I only won 'cause I spiked the river. Now I'll shut up and listen and learn.....

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outphase

10-24-2006, 01:16 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

Hand 1: too passive. if someone is raising that flop, you should 3bet.
Hand 2: already discussed
Hand 3: standard
Hand 4: 3bet the flop then check the turn?
Hand 5: i'd say wait for the turn to raise, you'll likely entice more bluffs
Hand 6: i think you're behind at the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

kyc12

10-24-2006, 02:32 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

Use a hand converter!

LimpinAintEZ

10-24-2006, 03:07 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice

Posts: 591

way too passive - checking the turn cards and the river - yuck - bet/raise and re-raise people - At least be raising the turns for extra big bets...

generally way too passive though -

this space intentionally left blank

arkitekton

10-24-2006, 10:16 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Me too. Sorry to be a prick, but life's too short to wade through unconverted hands.

Great poster, though....

sarbox68

10-24-2006, 10:55 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Not being a prick at all, and no reason to apologize!!!

Just to defend myself... I'm not being a lazy a-hole, and asking you all to do extra work.

For some reason, when I export hands from PT they work great in the converter. When I pull up the HH direct from Pokerroom and cut and paste, I get nothing but errors on BOTH converters. I'm on the road, so don't have access to PC w/ PT installed.

Guess I'm just retarded... but will try and figure out again tonight.

arkitekton

11-01-2006, 12:00 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Hand 1 is a clear raise preflop unless the blinds are very loose. If they play reasonably, however, then you'd like to take your chance to play heads up against the limper against whom you're probably at least even money and have position. Given that, I like your flop play until the point that you cap. You'd like the small blind to bet out on the turn (so that you can raise), and you'd like the big blind to call a bet by the small blind, something he's more likely to do if he thinks he's going to see the river for one bet. Further, by waiting to raise, the small blind may be more inclined to go ahead and reraise the turn on a variety of hands you can beat. If instead you cap the flop, then raise the turn, unless he has the nuts the small blind is probably going to calm down and check-call the rest of the way.

What did you put them on, by the way? The worst you're likely to find is a straight draw for the small blind, and top pair good kicker for the utg.

Given the way it went, the turn is an ugly card, as it may have given someone a straight. If so you'd think it's the small blind since he bets and then reraises the turn, though his action on the river say he hasn't got the straight. The big blind shouldn't have a straight either, since he doesn't cap the turn, and raising a draw on the flop with players behind you is usually a terrible play... The problem here is that no one's betting makes sense, and since it's possible you'll find one opponent with QJ and the other with 33, calling down is reasonable, though folding on the turn once you get raised into despite your flop cap is also tempting--through that point and not knowing that the betting will become inconsistent it's very, very tempting to believe that the small blind has hit a straight.

HAND 2: Very, very hard to get away from, of course, though it is possible to fold by the time the turn gets 3-bet. When an opponent springs to life after a brick comes on the turn it's usually because he was slowplaying a monster--especially when he bets into two opponents who capped the flop (and odd play in itself--did he bet out because he was afraid the turn was going to get checked through?). I assume you ran into TT?

The most useful question you can ask yourself at junctures such as this one is, is there any hand I can beat that is consistent with my opponents' betting to this point. If not, folding is often the right move.

HAND 3: With the odd betting, who knows. I like that you avoided capping the flop in order to raise on the expensive street--that the sb 3bet out of position then got scared on the turn doesn't mean your approach wasn't sound... I think you played this well.

HAND 4: Can't be right to cap and check unless it's the case of an unusual free card play. Normally, when you cap the flop it's because you believe that, in combination with whatever later strategy you want to implement, it's the best way to get the most money in the pot.

HAND 5: Simmer down! You';re either waaaay ahead or waaaay behind. If you're way ahead, then raising the flop is going to get you exactly the result you got, whereas if you're way behind, you'll get reraised here or checkraised on the turn.

HAND 6: Once the second opponent folds capping the turn is all right, though I'd generally wait for the river to raise--often it seems the momentum that lets them have the last raise on the turn causes them to reraise on the river if they have the chance, whereas a cap often slows them down.
As of the turn, the way the betting went most of the time you'll be up against a Q with lesser kicker, or an underpair someone thinks is good...

Great hands, and a very, very interesting post.

sinky

11-01-2006, 02:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: SCOTLAND

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkitekton

HAND 2: Very, very hard to get away from, of course, though it is possible to fold by the time the turn gets 3-bet. When an opponent springs to life after a brick comes on the turn it's usually because he was slowplaying a monster--especially when he bets into two opponents who capped the flop (and odd play in itself--did he bet out because he was afraid the turn was going to get checked through?). I assume you ran into TT?

Against TT for UTG+ 1 you have quite a few outs on the turn.
If Button has the other K, you have 3 outs to win and 3 to split.
If Button has AA then you have 4 outs.

Against KT for UTG+1 you have more of a problem. At best you have 3 outs and Button may be holding 2 of them.

Both of these hands have 3 remaining ways of being dealt, however would UTG+1 raise PF and call a cap with KT. Much more likely with TT. Given the pot odds and great implied odds I would not fold on the turn.

Next question is can you fold the river having put opponents on such specific hands ?

kyc12

11-01-2006, 03:52 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

Thanks for the edit:

I'll focus on preflop:

Hand 1: Raise. You're not getting the odds to look for a set, so raise and hope a c-bet on the flop can get you the pot.

Hand 3: This hand is probably just good enough to cold-call, but I don't think you miss much value by folding here, as you occasionally lose your set to higher sets/str8/flushes.

As for Hand 5, I actually don't think the flop raise is that bad. If you have a 9, it is right to raise the flop to see where you're at, so he'll take that into consideration as well. I think SB just mucked a middle pair. If you call the flop he is quite likely to c/f the turn anyways. Calling down works better if your opponent is aggressive, because he'll keep betting his TT-KK.

arkitekton

11-02-2006, 02:09 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Interesting post, sinky, though I'm not sure I follow all of your reasoning.

Quote:

Against TT for UTG+ 1 you have quite a few outs on the turn.

Four, it seems. The Ks, As, Ah, and Ad. Don't mean to split hairs here, but I see that as a few outs, rather than as "quite a few outs." More precisely, if we do assume TT for UTG+1, then it's 41 to 4 against us improving, and we can't assume on the turn that it won't get capped behind us. Our pot odds may be 23 to 2, but they may also be 25 to 3. If the latter, we may very well not get the implied odds we need, especially since the cards that help us are going to look scary to our opponents. Further, there's a hidden cost I've noted in other threads (and often paid!), in that if it just gets called behind us, are we really going to fold to a bet on the river? With top set, top kicker? To be fair, I think most of us, having hung around through the turn, are going to pay off on the river as well. If that's the case, our odds on the turn are worse (and sometimes much worse) than 23 to 2 or 25 to 3.

Quote:

If Button has AA then you have 4 outs.

If so, then an Ace doesn't help us, since that gives the button a better full house. A ten doesn't help us, since that gives UTG+1 four of a kind. Only a King helps us, and there's only one out there.

Quote:

If Button has the other K, you have 3 outs to win and 3 to split.

I don't quite follow this. Would you mind enumerating the hands you're considering?

Quote:

Against KT for UTG+1 you have more of a problem. At best you have 3 outs and Button may be holding 2 of them. Both of these hands have 3 remaining ways of being dealt, however would UTG+1 raise PF and call a cap with KT. Much more likely with TT.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Next question is can you fold the river having put opponents on such specific hands ?

If I stayed for the turn, I doubt I'd be able to fold the river (hence the "hidden cost" of calling on the turn I mentioned above); yet another reason to fold the turn!

sinky

11-02-2006, 08:50 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: SCOTLAND

Posts: 295

arkitekton, think you overlooked a 3 hitting on the river.

Board is KKT3
UTG+1 has TT
BU has AA.
Hero has AK.

Hero has 4 clean outs. 1 King and 3 threes.

Board is KKT3
UTG+1 has TT
BU has KQ
Hero has AK

Hero has 3 outs to win. 3 Aces.
Hero has 3 outs to split with BU. 3 threes.

Regarding the implied odds. When estimating the outs I have taken the worst case and assumed that UTG+1 already has the full house. This gives me great implied odds. With the button struggling to find a fold in such a monster pot I am hoping to get 4 more bets. In the 2nd scenario where Hero wins with an A on the river I would expect UTG+1 to raise and 3 bet, allowing me to cap with BU coming along for at least 2 more bets.

arkitekton

11-03-2006, 02:39 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Quote:

arkitekton, think you overlooked a 3 hitting on the river.

Ah--there's the source of it--I read it as you talking about the hand as of the flop.

In the matter of implied odds, I think you're right, for example, that the button will find it just about impossible to fold a lot of hands we can beat. Also, I don't want to discount the possiblity, even if it's a slim one, that we're actually ahead as of the turn. I've seen far stranger things at the table than people betting their heads off in situations such as this with hands like AA and KQ, or flush draws, or straight draws.

btw, in my original post I didn't say one should fold on the turn, just that it was possible to do so--and once it's a possibility, then we have to go to reads, if any. Thanks for the thoughtful post, sinky.

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