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fastplaying the flop

  
 
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DrivingDog
Old 11-21-2007, 09:27 AM     Post subject: fastplaying the flop #1 (permalink)  
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Just sat down 20 hands ago, but table is fairly loose. Limping in and 3 or 4 to see a raised flop is not uncommon. I got lucky that UTG 3bet the flop and CO came along for the ride but in general would anyone wait until the turn to raise here? My concern at the time was that UTG may have been auto-cbetting the flop or had JJ, etc., and might not bet the turn.

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 5.
UTG raises, MP calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6, 5, K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, MP folds, CO calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 6 (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (13.70 BB) 5 (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB


The post-hand commentary is also somewhat enlightening as to how bad someone at 5/10 can be.

DrivingDog: shows [5c 5d] (four of a kind, Fives)
p12resh04: mucks hand
kk ichi: mucks hand
p12resh04 said, "omg"
DrivingDog said, "heh"
DrivingDog collected $164 from pot
p12resh04 said, "he called 55 to a PF raise"

And oh yeah, UTG had KQ, CO had K9s.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Jibalob
Old 11-21-2007, 10:23 AM #2 (permalink)  
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This is one of those hands that no-matter how you play it you think you could have got more value.

Personally, given the lack of reads etc due to only being 20 hands in, I think you played this hand very well.

Donking the flop would have most likely lost you alot of value because your average 5/10 UTG raiser is almost always going to raise your flop bet which will knock CO and MP out right there on the flop. Theres also the possibility that no-one else has a hand and everyone folds which would really suck. Also, I think you can sucessfully c/r here 99.9% of the time as I dont think I've ever seen a flop like this check round after a PFR.

Conclusion: C/R flop goot

When UTG 3-bets I'm instantly thinking about just calling and c/r'ing the turn - especially as the flop is K-high and the only likey scare card for villain is an Ace and *maybe* a nine. Again this is a very read-dependant play and 20 hands just isn't enough to get a strong read (with the exception of total maniacs) so capping the flop isn't too bad either, especially as CO pretty much has to call now and inflating the pot now may commit weaker hands to call down the turn and river.

Conclusion: flop cap is 50/50

Turn and river play themselves after the flop action.
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Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
 
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littleogre
Old 11-21-2007, 10:35 AM #3 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 wow op check raises the flop then caps when utg 3-bets. He then proceds to lead out on the turn yet it never dawns on either of these guys that there pair may be no good.
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DrivingDog
Old 11-21-2007, 02:43 PM #4 (permalink)  
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People are capable of very aggressive bluffs or semi-bluffs at this level which is why others call down with marginal hands. The guy with K9s obv. played it badly from start to finish but I would probably have at least a little think before i folded KQ.

E.g., at least some players in my position will cap the flop with 87 or 43 and bet the turn and river even if they miss their draw, hoping to make TP and MP hands fold.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Jibalob
Old 11-21-2007, 03:06 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
People are capable of very aggressive bluffs or semi-bluffs at this level which is why others call down with marginal hands..
The funny thing is, ALOT of players are more aggressive with their semi-bluffs than they are with their actual made hands so they actually end up putting more in whilst behind than when they are ahead.

Even better, this can encourage fish to start trying to stone cold bluff in ridiculous spots with absolute garbage because they dont really understand whats goin on.
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Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
 
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arborman
Old 11-21-2007, 06:04 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I love that villain got upset about your preflop call from the BB (which was just fine with 3 in the pot and being last to act). With any luck he'll write a note on you that says you are a loose donkey that can't play for beans.
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 11-21-2007, 08:27 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Hermann the Lombard
I think that most sets should be played fast, perhaps because I read Lee Jones first. Here you want to make anyone with a K or 6 pay for their draw. If your set were Kings or Aces then I'd try to set up a turn raise.
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KoRnholio
Old 11-21-2007, 08:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Playing it fast also has the added bonus of being able to 3bet on the turn if someone raises when they hit their K or 6 Plus we have to make any possible straight draws pay to be drawing dead on the turn, muahahaha.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 11-23-2007, 04:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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a lot of times capping the flop freezes up an opponent into c/c down... it depends on if your opponent is willing to fell you might cap a sole K or not if he'll play back with a worse hand then your bottom set... i think a lot of players wont cap AK in that spot they'd probably call and raise the turn, it's a straight forward line but when he 3 bets you can immediately get a c-bet on the turn extra 1/2bb, plus given the pot is large you wont mind if he happens to fold... as it was once said "save your fancy plays for smaller pots, win big ones right away" ~ mason Malmuth, Poker Essays I

of course if you have a bunch of thinking players capping once and awhile to throw it off isn't so bad, however i wouldn't be sitting at a table with all taggs, i'd use a little bettor table selection
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