an example of effective slowplay

Because there wasn't really anything for him to have, other than 6x, draws, and overcards? And he's not calling a turn bet with those, but checking behind gives him a chance to improve and still have the second best hand.

You open limped, though. Is that acceptable in limit?

Originally Posted by siltstrider

Because there wasn't really anything for him to have, other than 6x, draws, and overcards? And he's not calling a turn bet with those, but checking behind gives him a chance to improve and still have the second best hand.

You open limped, though. Is that acceptable in limit?

Absolutely right on the slowplay.

As for limping, on the table I was at, it was reasonable, because there was so little aggression that you could get callers and get your suited connectors and small pairs into multi-way pots.

If I had been in late position, I would have opened with a raise. But I don't want to get re-raised after raising from early position and end up heads up out of position with a hand that doesn't play very well heads up.

sorry, not a good slowplay

Yeah Hero bets turn all the time, because if your opponent is drawing to any of his draw outs, he's getting his implied odds by raising your river bet when he hits his dead outs.

BAD MONKEY!

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Yeah Hero bets turn all the time, because if your opponent is drawing to any of his draw outs, he's getting his implied odds by raising your river bet when he hits his dead outs.

BAD MONKEY!

Remember, (1) the board paired, which means that another bet will make some villains start to worry, and (2) overcards are as likely as a straight draw, and there's an opportunity to collect 2BB's, not just 1, if Villain has overcards.

I'mma go out on a limb and say you missed a bet by not betting the turn. Villain raises when he catches his super scary card on the river whether you bet turn or not.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

sorry, not a good slowplay

+1 at a 10 cent level.

i dont mean to be devil's advocate, again, lawdude, but these guys are literally DYING to chase draws. bet the turn again. sure, the KT hand wont likely lead the river, but he will call twice more since he called the flop...after all, he has overs...lol.

look again at the possibilities your VILLAINS could hold, and what THEY might put you on. you limp preflop (sort of acceptable for full ring, but i wouldnt advocate it at this level and certainly not when opening....you should have such a post flop edge at this table that raising 89s should be mandatory here unless you have a limper or two already in.) your villains love to play crappy middle cards, and may have hit a weak pair or gutshot or legit draw...you just dont know down here. so, you need max value. and, when the 9 hits the turn, you should be throwing on the gasoline!! your villains suck so bad, they will think you have a flush draw or whatever...or at least the possibility. and, what i am saying is you have to let them be stupid enough to pay off MULTIPLE bets down here instead of thinking they are drawing dead and you have to let them catch a card to pay you off once more.

and, more importantly, any flush draw will call. and, any straight draw will call, too. and THEY will raise the river if they hit allowing you to 3bet and possibly get to a capped river.

at these low stakes, you have to play for big fish in potential big pots. at the very least, you get paid by pairs the whole way down. but, at the best, you get raised on the river when the fish thinks he rivered your trips.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

sorry, not a good slowplay

+1 at a 10 cent level.

i dont mean to be devil's advocate, again, lawdude, but these guys are literally DYING to chase draws. bet the turn again. sure, the KT hand wont likely lead the river, but he will call twice more since he called the flop...after all, he has overs...lol.

look again at the possibilities your VILLAINS could hold, and what THEY might put you on. you limp preflop (sort of acceptable for full ring, but i wouldnt advocate it at this level and certainly not when opening....you should have such a post flop edge at this table that raising 89s should be mandatory here unless you have a limper or two already in.) your villains love to play crappy middle cards, and may have hit a weak pair or gutshot or legit draw...you just dont know down here. so, you need max value. and, when the 9 hits the turn, you should be throwing on the gasoline!! your villains suck so bad, they will think you have a flush draw or whatever...or at least the possibility. and, what i am saying is you have to let them be stupid enough to pay off MULTIPLE bets down here instead of thinking they are drawing dead and you have to let them catch a card to pay you off once more.

and, more importantly, any flush draw will call. and, any straight draw will call, too. and THEY will raise the river if they hit allowing you to 3bet and possibly get to a capped river.

at these low stakes, you have to play for big fish in potential big pots. at the very least, you get paid by pairs the whole way down. but, at the best, you get raised on the river when the fish thinks he rivered your trips.

1. But if he calls twice more, I didn't miss a bet. At worst, that means slowplay is 0EV.

2. I hate to tell you this, but raising suited connectors out of position full ring is wrong wrong wrong. (I don't like raising them too much in position unless it is going to be a shorthanded pot, in which case I will raise them liberally. But that's a much closer question.) If it's an aggressive game, you should fold them. If it's a passive game, you should limp them.

Why? Because they don't play well heads up. In an aggressive game, you are likely to be re-raised by someone with higher cards and you will be an underdog to win the hand.

In a passive game, you aren't going to have much fold equity post-flop so your aggression isn't likely to thin the herd enough to win you a lot of pots. It's more likely to just cut your implied odds on your draws.

3. You have a point about some opponents raising the river if they hit a flush or a straight. But remember, as well, that lots of opponents won't do this if they see you betting very aggressively on earlier streets and then leading out on the river. In other words, it's Villain-dependent.

This particular villian was loose-passive. He played a lot of hands to the flop and often folded on the flop or the turn. In about 1/2 an hour of play, he had hit one low straight, against action, which he called down to the river (and did not raise) in position to win the hand. (The flop was 987 and he had 65; his opponent was representing a possible higher straight.) He also called down a hand where he had made a pair of 3's on the flop with his 43 suited and his opponent had pocket 9's and had raised pre-flop. I assumed he figured that his opponent may have been c-betting with air.

Those were the only notable hands I had on him. Not sure if that helps at all on the read.

1.. i see that, but if he hits a card and RAISES, you gain more. or, if he thinks you are full of it and raises, you get more. by leading, you can only get less when villain folds, which is not too common at this level. missed overs may fold, true, but we dont know that he has KT. we have to put him on a MUCH wider range. i have seen underpairs to the board call down here. Ahi may even call down. and, crappy two pair may raise in spite of the flush completing.

just today, i had 99 UTG. i raise, btn calls cold, bb calls. flop is Q33 two spades (one of my 9's is a spade). bb bets out, i raise, btn calls two cold AGAIN. so, i slow up. i check the 3rd spade on the turn (8s). it checks around?? river puts 4th spade up (6s), giving me a crappy flush. bb checks now, i check, btn comes in firing?? bb c/r's?!!! i bail only to find QT rivered by Q6....no spades!!!! i was pissed, but the pot was only 8bb's big, and per our other discussions, i dont feel anywhere close to good 13% of the time with two players going bananas. but still, i dont like folding the best hand EVER.

my point is, you just dont know what they decide to go stupid apeshit with down here. you have to assume a very, very wide range, and you can't give free cards, even to one player, if you think he may be calling with anything, especially on a drawy board.

if he folds, he had absolutely nothing, and those are the breaks. but, if he doesnt, you control the pot's action still and may get a raise on a card that seals his fate, too. to me, it's clearly a better way to play ubermicro stakes limit.

2.. WOW, we couldnt disagree more here. i feel this is a full ring nit vs a short-handed online player's debate. i will crush players on full ring tables online with suited connectors for a couple reasons: 1) i take the initiative and increase the chances of getting HU or 3way, in which case i have the advantage. i can bluff big card flops with cbets, i can c/r my draws, i can valuebet TP, two pair, and trips that look to completely miss my range. 2) i balance out the times i do raise AK/99. you have a much harder time reading me, especially when i drop the semibluff c/r on you and either hit the turn or donk the scare card.

i just have so many more ways to win a hand........AND FUTURE HANDS. and, it pays my premiums off because you will inevitably only play back at me when you DO hit cards. therefore, i can read you better than you can read me.....i win again.

i LOVE playing FR guys when i can steal blinds or get them isolated. why do you think all books are recommending getting good at short-handed play?? it makes your full ring game better, too, because you are almost always in a comfortable situation and can better put your villains in UNcomfortable spots.

as for passive play, i can adjust, and likely wont be open raising 89s from that early, either, but you made no mention/read of anything about the hand. these things should be included, imo. but, i will raise them to change things up on occasion, too. the point is, my villains just wont know. my post flop game isnt great, but it is good enough to play 89s in this spot to a raise because i know what i am looking for and they cant fold AK when it whiffs.

3.. touche` on the "villain dependant." but, that just means it is more important for you to put some kind of read in the HH before we start answering.


again, i have respect for a lot of your game, and i love to take the "other side" to provide discussion in here. but, here i am kind of explaining how and why i play this hand differently. we ought to know each other well enough to know this isnt a personal attack in either direction, right?

Originally Posted by Chopper

1.. i see that, but if he hits a card and RAISES, you gain more. or, if he thinks you are full of it and raises, you get more. by leading, you can only get less when villain folds, which is not too common at this level. missed overs may fold, true, but we dont know that he has KT. we have to put him on a MUCH wider range. i have seen underpairs to the board call down here. Ahi may even call down. and, crappy two pair may raise in spite of the flush completing.

just today, i had 99 UTG. i raise, btn calls cold, bb calls. flop is Q33 two spades (one of my 9's is a spade). bb bets out, i raise, btn calls two cold AGAIN. so, i slow up. i check the 3rd spade on the turn (8s). it checks around?? river puts 4th spade up (6s), giving me a crappy flush. bb checks now, i check, btn comes in firing?? bb c/r's?!!! i bail only to find QT rivered by Q6....no spades!!!! i was pissed, but the pot was only 8bb's big, and per our other discussions, i dont feel anywhere close to good 13% of the time with two players going bananas. but still, i dont like folding the best hand EVER.

my point is, you just dont know what they decide to go stupid apeshit with down here. you have to assume a very, very wide range, and you can't give free cards, even to one player, if you think he may be calling with anything, especially on a drawy board.

if he folds, he had absolutely nothing, and those are the breaks. but, if he doesnt, you control the pot's action still and may get a raise on a card that seals his fate, too. to me, it's clearly a better way to play ubermicro stakes limit.

2.. WOW, we couldnt disagree more here. i feel this is a full ring nit vs a short-handed online player's debate. i will crush players on full ring tables online with suited connectors for a couple reasons: 1) i take the initiative and increase the chances of getting HU or 3way, in which case i have the advantage. i can bluff big card flops with cbets, i can c/r my draws, i can valuebet TP, two pair, and trips that look to completely miss my range. 2) i balance out the times i do raise AK/99. you have a much harder time reading me, especially when i drop the semibluff c/r on you and either hit the turn or donk the scare card.

i just have so many more ways to win a hand........AND FUTURE HANDS. and, it pays my premiums off because you will inevitably only play back at me when you DO hit cards. therefore, i can read you better than you can read me.....i win again.

i LOVE playing FR guys when i can steal blinds or get them isolated. why do you think all books are recommending getting good at short-handed play?? it makes your full ring game better, too, because you are almost always in a comfortable situation and can better put your villains in UNcomfortable spots.

as for passive play, i can adjust, and likely wont be open raising 89s from that early, either, but you made no mention/read of anything about the hand. these things should be included, imo. but, i will raise them to change things up on occasion, too. the point is, my villains just wont know. my post flop game isnt great, but it is good enough to play 89s in this spot to a raise because i know what i am looking for and they cant fold AK when it whiffs.

3.. touche` on the "villain dependant." but, that just means it is more important for you to put some kind of read in the HH before we start answering.


again, i have respect for a lot of your game, and i love to take the "other side" to provide discussion in here. but, here i am kind of explaining how and why i play this hand differently. we ought to know each other well enough to know this isnt a personal attack in either direction, right?

I know it's not a personal attack.

Look, if we were talking about a six-max game, the question of raising suited connectors is a whole different ballgame. (Although what you really want in such games are hands with big cards and pocket pairs, not suited connectors, because those hands play better heads up. But nothing wrong with playing your suited connectors at maximum aggression level in 6-max. Nothing at all.)

In full ring, though, raising suited connectors out of position is asking for it. If your table is aggressive, you will get re-raised, a lot, and will end up heads up out of position with a hand that doesn't play very well heads up.

If you are at a passive table, it isn't much better. You'll get called by several players who will then have position on you, and you will have cut your implied odds with your raise if you hit a big hand.

Now it is true, you can bluff lots of flops. But watch out! At an aggressive table, players will raise you with middle pair or even ace high. Aggressive limit players know about how often you should be raising if you are only raising big hands. If we see too many pre-flop raises from you, prepare to get called down or raised post-flop.

On the other hand, passive limit players will often call you down just because they are passive.

So where does this leave us? Back where we started. In full ring limit, suited connectors should be folded from early position at an aggressive table and limped at a passive one.

Finally, a word on stealing blinds. At bad limit tables, you don't get to steal them very often, but if you get the chance, it's a great play.

But at good limit tables, the dance between late position and the blinds is quite interesting. Good players, again, play back at blind stealers. Not when they have trash hands-- no use fighting a blind steal with 93o. But when they have something that can play well heads up, they will push back. And, again, if they don't believe a blind stealer, they will call him all the way down or raise him post-flop with Ace-high.

Personally, I view blind-stealing as a very necessary part of limit strategy. I do it all the time.

But I don't think it is particularly hugely profitable, because when you get into the limits where it is very tight and aggressive and you have a lot of blind-stealing opportunities, you also run into players who know how to defend their blinds properly. And once you get there, you are much more likely to be treading water stealing blinds and using it to conceal and get maximum value from your monster hands in position.

This one's for you, Chopper:

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, K
6 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.12 (1.2 BB) | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show 7, K (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.12

And here's what you do to blind-stealers:

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, 7
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) 2, 4, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, SB calls

Turn: (6 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, SB calls

River: (8 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.80 (8 BB) | Rake: $0.03

Results:
SB had Q, A (high card, Ace).
Hero had 7, 7 (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero won $0.77

again, i think we understand each other pretty well. at 5c/10c, though, i assume passive unless proven otherwise. and, i, personally, have found a lot of nits there in full ring games. ...if one barrel wont, the second one will.

as for your hands..

1.. sure, i take all the opportunities i can get, too, since 5c/10c players WONT play back from the blinds often. i will pop down to K5o and K2s here.

2.. this wasnt a steal. UTG+1 raised pre. you isolated with a made hand, hopefully putting him on a range like TT+/suited broadways/AJ/KQish. if so, this hand is easy to play on a flop like this.....its valuetown. i bet the river for value, too. maybe he will think i was bluffing worse overs. the fact that he checked, to me, means no 8 or 9, as he would have either c/r'd the turn or donked the river with those.

my question is: what do you do when i c/r you on this flop w/ AQ and lead the turn if anything completes or a broadway falls? after all, i likely have 10 outs on you.

can i try this on some other site as well

Originally Posted by Chopper

again, i think we understand each other pretty well. at 5c/10c, though, i assume passive unless proven otherwise. and, i, personally, have found a lot of nits there in full ring games. ...if one barrel wont, the second one will.

as for your hands..

1.. sure, i take all the opportunities i can get, too, since 5c/10c players WONT play back from the blinds often. i will pop down to K5o and K2s here.

2.. this wasnt a steal. UTG+1 raised pre. you isolated with a made hand, hopefully putting him on a range like TT+/suited broadways/AJ/KQish. if so, this hand is easy to play on a flop like this.....its valuetown. i bet the river for value, too. maybe he will think i was bluffing worse overs. the fact that he checked, to me, means no 8 or 9, as he would have either c/r'd the turn or donked the river with those.

my question is: what do you do when i c/r you on this flop w/ AQ and lead the turn if anything completes or a broadway falls? after all, i likely have 10 outs on you.

Actually, 2 was a steal. UTG+1 had been doing this a lot. I was one of two players at the table who were playing back at him-- everyone else was folding like a tent to his raises. So his range was much broader than you put him on, more like Ax Kx AA-22 + suited connectors and 1 gappers and some high nonsuited connectors and one gappers.

I had a made hand, check raised, and led out on the turn and got rid of him. SB was one of the fishes-- he should have re-raised pre-flop with that AQ, but instead just called. On the river, he probably isn't calling me unless he has my 7's beat (although it's possible-- it depends on how afraid he is of my check-raise on the flop), so I figured I would take a free showdown against him.

As for how I handle aggression with small pocket pairs, if I am heads up, I play the player a lot more than I play the hand. If something's dreadfully obvious (e.g., 4 cards to a straight or flush, or I can't even beat a bluff), I will fold, of course, but if I have a any pair heads up against an overaggressive player, and I can't get rid of him through aggression (as I did the guy in hand 2), I will simply start calling down to the river with any pair or even ace high and forcing him to beat me. Usually, I only have to do this 2 or 3 times and they get the point and back off a bit. But if they don't, it's +EV in the long term.

i love playing the overly aggressive. usually it's a maniac or someone responding to my aggression against them. the first is easy, the latter is easy to spot when it starts to happen.

i will tend to call down more than anything because i dont want to try and bully a guy that thinks he can bully me. i would rather keep him at the table and bleed him dry, especially if he is already tilting. the fact that i stop playing back at him w/ TP and just call down is a lot of fun.

of course, when they stop trying to blow me off pots, i just turn the aggression back on. i love controlling the action down here. i cant do it at 1/2, because i still suck, but it's fun at 25/50c.

my main leak, right now, is still valuebetting the river when only better will call. i miss some bluffs that way. although, i am better at inducing bluffs than at any point in my playing career right now.

what does the term slow play actaully mean :S im confused lol

This an example of a bad play.