Originally Posted by siltstrider

Because there wasn't really anything for him to have, other than 6x, draws, and overcards? And he's not calling a turn bet with those, but checking behind gives him a chance to improve and still have the second best hand.

You open limped, though. Is that acceptable in limit?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Yeah Hero bets turn all the time, because if your opponent is drawing to any of his draw outs, he's getting his implied odds by raising your river bet when he hits his dead outs.

BAD MONKEY!

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

sorry, not a good slowplay

Originally Posted by Chopper

+1 at a 10 cent level.

i dont mean to be devil's advocate, again, lawdude, but these guys are literally DYING to chase draws. bet the turn again. sure, the KT hand wont likely lead the river, but he will call twice more since he called the flop...after all, he has overs...lol.

look again at the possibilities your VILLAINS could hold, and what THEY might put you on. you limp preflop (sort of acceptable for full ring, but i wouldnt advocate it at this level and certainly not when opening....you should have such a post flop edge at this table that raising 89s should be mandatory here unless you have a limper or two already in.) your villains love to play crappy middle cards, and may have hit a weak pair or gutshot or legit draw...you just dont know down here. so, you need max value. and, when the 9 hits the turn, you should be throwing on the gasoline!! your villains suck so bad, they will think you have a flush draw or whatever...or at least the possibility. and, what i am saying is you have to let them be stupid enough to pay off MULTIPLE bets down here instead of thinking they are drawing dead and you have to let them catch a card to pay you off once more.

and, more importantly, any flush draw will call. and, any straight draw will call, too. and THEY will raise the river if they hit allowing you to 3bet and possibly get to a capped river.

at these low stakes, you have to play for big fish in potential big pots. at the very least, you get paid by pairs the whole way down. but, at the best, you get raised on the river when the fish thinks he rivered your trips.

Originally Posted by Chopper

1.. i see that, but if he hits a card and RAISES, you gain more. or, if he thinks you are full of it and raises, you get more. by leading, you can only get less when villain folds, which is not too common at this level. missed overs may fold, true, but we dont know that he has KT. we have to put him on a MUCH wider range. i have seen underpairs to the board call down here. Ahi may even call down. and, crappy two pair may raise in spite of the flush completing.

just today, i had 99 UTG. i raise, btn calls cold, bb calls. flop is Q33 two spades (one of my 9's is a spade). bb bets out, i raise, btn calls two cold AGAIN. so, i slow up. i check the 3rd spade on the turn (8s). it checks around?? river puts 4th spade up (6s), giving me a crappy flush. bb checks now, i check, btn comes in firing?? bb c/r's?!!! i bail only to find QT rivered by Q6....no spades!!!! i was pissed, but the pot was only 8bb's big, and per our other discussions, i dont feel anywhere close to good 13% of the time with two players going bananas. but still, i dont like folding the best hand EVER.

my point is, you just dont know what they decide to go stupid apeshit with down here. you have to assume a very, very wide range, and you can't give free cards, even to one player, if you think he may be calling with anything, especially on a drawy board.

if he folds, he had absolutely nothing, and those are the breaks. but, if he doesnt, you control the pot's action still and may get a raise on a card that seals his fate, too. to me, it's clearly a better way to play ubermicro stakes limit.

2.. WOW, we couldnt disagree more here. i feel this is a full ring nit vs a short-handed online player's debate. i will crush players on full ring tables online with suited connectors for a couple reasons: 1) i take the initiative and increase the chances of getting HU or 3way, in which case i have the advantage. i can bluff big card flops with cbets, i can c/r my draws, i can valuebet TP, two pair, and trips that look to completely miss my range. 2) i balance out the times i do raise AK/99. you have a much harder time reading me, especially when i drop the semibluff c/r on you and either hit the turn or donk the scare card.

i just have so many more ways to win a hand........AND FUTURE HANDS. and, it pays my premiums off because you will inevitably only play back at me when you DO hit cards. therefore, i can read you better than you can read me.....i win again.

i LOVE playing FR guys when i can steal blinds or get them isolated. why do you think all books are recommending getting good at short-handed play?? it makes your full ring game better, too, because you are almost always in a comfortable situation and can better put your villains in UNcomfortable spots.

as for passive play, i can adjust, and likely wont be open raising 89s from that early, either, but you made no mention/read of anything about the hand. these things should be included, imo. but, i will raise them to change things up on occasion, too. the point is, my villains just wont know. my post flop game isnt great, but it is good enough to play 89s in this spot to a raise because i know what i am looking for and they cant fold AK when it whiffs.

3.. touche` on the "villain dependant." but, that just means it is more important for you to put some kind of read in the HH before we start answering.


again, i have respect for a lot of your game, and i love to take the "other side" to provide discussion in here. but, here i am kind of explaining how and why i play this hand differently. we ought to know each other well enough to know this isnt a personal attack in either direction, right?

Originally Posted by Chopper

again, i think we understand each other pretty well. at 5c/10c, though, i assume passive unless proven otherwise. and, i, personally, have found a lot of nits there in full ring games. ...if one barrel wont, the second one will.

as for your hands..

1.. sure, i take all the opportunities i can get, too, since 5c/10c players WONT play back from the blinds often. i will pop down to K5o and K2s here.

2.. this wasnt a steal. UTG+1 raised pre. you isolated with a made hand, hopefully putting him on a range like TT+/suited broadways/AJ/KQish. if so, this hand is easy to play on a flop like this.....its valuetown. i bet the river for value, too. maybe he will think i was bluffing worse overs. the fact that he checked, to me, means no 8 or 9, as he would have either c/r'd the turn or donked the river with those.

my question is: what do you do when i c/r you on this flop w/ AQ and lead the turn if anything completes or a broadway falls? after all, i likely have 10 outs on you.