Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

All Other (Limit) Poker

  > 

Equity

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
ellisd
Old 02-20-2006, 11:25 PM     Post subject: Equity #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 22
ellisd
Can someone please explain equity using mathematical terms. I often see the term thrown around when describing draws and have deduced it to mean that it's a fraction of the pot belonging to a player (in the long run.)

When is a good time to raise or C/R with a draw using equity?
How do you determine equity or fold equity?
How would a player easily go from odds to equity? Like taking your odds and multiplying it by the BB. If that equals less than the pot call, but instead using the players in the hand...?

Example:
Player: Ks,Js
Flop: 6d As 7s
Turn: 2c
Players: 3
Pot 6BB
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
euphoricism
Old 02-21-2006, 02:35 AM #2 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
People knew to the forum are NOT supposed to ask these good questions. Stop it!

Ok, I don't think I can properly answer your question, so I'll leave it to the math guys, but I just wanted to chime in that you're asking the right questions that make me think you're going to turn into a damned good player.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
dsaxton
Old 02-21-2006, 05:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
dsaxton
Equity is basically another term for "expectation," which refers to the average outcome of a random event when it's repeated an infinite number of times. This number is generally found by multiplying each payoff by its corresponding probability, and then taking the sum of these values.

For example, suppose an experiment where you flip a coin, and whenever tails came up, you win $1, and whenever heads came up, you lose $1. If you were to continuously perform this experiment, and take the average profit of the previous flips on each iteration, the number would converge to zero. In this situation, the "expectation" of each individual flip is said to be zero.
Reply With Quote
ArcticKnight
Old 02-21-2006, 06:15 AM #4 (permalink)  
ArcticKnight's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
ArcticKnight
On Fold Equity

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but I think fold equity is that extra equity edge you get in your overall equity when your bet (or raise?) might result in a fold. (knowing that a check or call gives you no such fold equity).

It's not possible to quantify in terms of outs or odds, so as a player you need to instinctively decide (perhaps in % terms) how much added fold equity you have when, for example you are holding AK or AQ and considering whether to bet the turn on a 6h, 8s , Jd, 2c board when your opponent has called your flop bet.....


In NL I think there is more discussion about this, as it's more likely that someone with AK, for example, could put a player all-in pre-flop. He then has two ways to win. He can win the hand at showdown, or he can cause the original better/raiser holding a hand like 44, 77, AJs etc to fold preflop, thus using his fold equity. The all-in caller only has one way to win…
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
Reply With Quote
Xanadu
Old 02-21-2006, 06:15 PM #5 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
Xanadu
Fold equity is a very important concept. It is also one of the most difficult parts of poker to quantify mathematically. I had been planning on putting together an analysis of fold equity, so this question is a good opportunity. I think basically the easier way of thinking of fold equity is not to ask 'how much fold equity do I have from this bet/raise?', but the reverse question of 'how much fold equity do I need to have to make this bet/raise have a positive expected value, and from my knowledge of my opponents can I reasonably expect them to fold that often?'. I'll start putting my analysis together later today.
Reply With Quote
pokerfanatic
Old 02-21-2006, 06:23 PM #6 (permalink)  
pokerfanatic's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
pokerfanatic
Send a message via AIM to pokerfanatic
I’m not sure if you're going to get a 100% answer from anyone actually equity is just that equity...

Main Entry: eq•ui•ty
1 a : justice according to natural law or right; specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism

so really its not that specific to start with. However here is a link on fold equity that I think does a decent job explaining what it is... Pot equity gets more in depth and harder to explain decently.

http://pokernerd.blogspot.com/2005/0...-i-had-to.html
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 02-21-2006, 07:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
I’m not sure if you're going to get a 100% answer from anyone actually equity is just that equity...

Main Entry: eq•ui•ty
1 a : justice according to natural law or right; specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
Xanadu
Old 02-21-2006, 07:33 PM #8 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
Xanadu
pot equity = (expectation of winning)(pot size)

Anyone who has had a decent course on prob/stat should know what expectation (estimation) means. Some might argue that ...
pot equity=expectation of winning
This is one of the great things (IMO) about the field of prob/stat. It is the only mathematical field that I know of that actually has meaningful controversy about the correct manner of calculating things. For example, is it mathematically correct to use a Bayesian estimator?

For a bet to be a value bet,

(expectation of winning)>(1/(1+ # of expected callers))

Taking fold equity into account makes this much more complex.
Reply With Quote
ellisd
Old 02-21-2006, 10:22 PM #9 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 22
ellisd
In the Theory of Poker, Sklansky goes on to say in one of his flush draw examples that there are 4 people in the pot and a 35 % one card chance to make the flush. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remembered he justified a bet because the percent amount equal to the probablilty of the player making the draw was greater than the percent people in the pot. However, I hardly feel this topic has much importance at a low limit table and most raises for equity can be based on gut.

Thanks for the encouragement euphoricism, now all I need is a bankroll.
Reply With Quote
pokerfanatic
Old 02-21-2006, 10:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
pokerfanatic's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
pokerfanatic
Send a message via AIM to pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
pot equity = (expectation of winning)(pot size)
What I mint by my comment is not the concept is hard the math behind it is complex and very lengthy, if you have read King Yao’s book he has equity equations all though the damn thing...

Great book BTW
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
Reply With Quote
dsaxton
Old 02-21-2006, 11:44 PM #11 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisd
In the Theory of Poker, Sklansky goes on to say in one of his flush draw examples that there are 4 people in the pot and a 35 % one card chance to make the flush. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remembered he justified a bet because the percent amount equal to the probablilty of the player making the draw was greater than the percent people in the pot. However, I hardly feel this topic has much importance at a low limit table and most raises for equity can be based on gut.

Thanks for the encouragement euphoricism, now all I need is a bankroll.
If you bet and get called my 3 other players, you expect to make money since you will win the pot more than 1/3 of the time. You risk one unit to increase the pot size by four units. You expect to win more than 1/3 of the 4 unit increase in the pot size, which is greater than the single unit you risk to do so. In practice, you can't be certain of getting sufficient callers for a bet with a drawing hand to be profitable, so it isn't quite as simple.
Reply With Quote
donnybaker
Old 02-22-2006, 04:05 AM #12 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: not playing much
Posts: 154
donnybaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
I’m not sure if you're going to get a 100% answer from anyone actually equity is just that equity...

Main Entry: eq•ui•ty
1 a : justice according to natural law or right; specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism

so really its not that specific to start with. However here is a link on fold equity that I think does a decent job explaining what it is... Pot equity gets more in depth and harder to explain decently.

http://pokernerd.blogspot.com/2005/0...-i-had-to.html
Thanks for this link! I learned a lot about fold equity. A must read for SNG or MTT players!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Nerd
Unless you are attempting to pick off a bluff, if you will call an all-in, it is always better to move all-in yourself first. Put the pressure on your opponent. It's easier and more fun.
Good stuff!
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:58 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.