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euphoricism
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07-23-2006, 04:19 AM
Post subject: Ed Miller's thoughts on blind play
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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My blind play is probably my weakest aspect of my game right now -- I seem to have lost my way somewhere, as I'm spewing horribly from the blinds.
Reading around, someone linked to Ed Miller's thoughts general thoughts on defending from the big blind.
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...s/article7.htm
Does anyone else disagree with him about defending with the hands he says to defend with?
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you are the big blind in a four-handed $20-$40 game. The first player folds, and the next, a typical shorthanded player, raises. The small blind folds. You have Q8. You should call. While you could still be a small or big dog, you could also be a small favorite (e.g., J9) or a big one (e.g., Q4). Protect your improved equity by calling with this and other “average” hands.
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This just seems... bad...
But my blind play is bad, so maybe I've got it arse backwards and he's dead on.
It just occured to me that he could be talking exclusively about short handed live games, which are an entirely different beast.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
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The point is you are playing against an aware shorthanded player, Who, by definition is raising 15-25% of his hands. Against this player, you should not fold an average hand getting 4.5 to 1.
In many small stakes games the players are raising less than 10% of their hands, and calling down with more marginal hands. In these games, playing a hand like Q8 out of position is probably a small mistake.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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In that example, I call Q8o everyday, but raise on Tuesdays.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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What helped me loosen up in blind play was to think of the equity we have in calling. If Any ace or king is stealing against us for example, we are only a slight dog if both our middle cards are playable to the pair. The equity we get in calling the preflop raise, including the inevitable continuation bet, gives us odds to call Q,8o.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I think playing these marginal hands against aggressive opponents is key, but playing them correctly post flop is even moreso. Against a person who steals with any two, we have equity to call any two (including the awesome 72o). However, most people can't play the any two scenario correctly (including myself) so which is why we fold these more marginal crap hands.
In my opinion, calling with these hands is much better than raising, and if you were to flop your Queen or 8, I would probably never raise postflop, unless I hit a Q and 8 which would purely be for value. Defending the BB in the situation is much easier from a SB raise than a button raise as at least you have position on the guy and can put in the river bet when you are ahead.
I will usually play uber-passive when it comes to blind play when I actually have a showdownable hand, which really helps against super aggro postflop players (majority of HU players play aggro). I fight fire with water, not with Fire. IMO, the players that will fire all 3 barrels on a pair draw while not actually realizing that I will only call when I have a pair and raise with a draw or good hand are the players to play against in Heads up and 3 handed situations. There is nothing more fun than destacking an aggressive HU guy who will raise every hand preflop by just check/calling every street and value betting the river with bottom pair.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
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Yeah, although we may technically have odds to call with any 2 when SB raises any 2, the margin is so slim it's not worth playing, except in the case where you know SB will keep banging his head on the wall by betting any 2 all 3 streets. Even 23o wins money here by just calling down whenever a pair is flopped and folding otherwise.
But if opponent will check down bad holdings that don't hit, and the rake is taken into account, it's not worth playing the worst of holdings. 23o has less than 28% equity against a random hand. Perhaps 35% equity would be worthwhile to call? If so, any hand with both cards higher than a 4 and any hand with an 8 or higher is about the cutoff for 35% The exceptions are that suited 3s other than 32s are playable, and 82o isn't. If 40% equity is enough, roughly any 2 5 or higher and any hand with a T or higher is playable along with the strongest suited hands not on that list.
I'm sure 40% equity versus random hand is good enough here. 35% might be, but surely isn't much of a mistake to not play the 35-40% hands.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
Yeah, although we may technically have odds to call with any 2 when SB raises any 2, the margin is so slim it's not worth playing, except in the case where you know SB will keep banging his head on the wall by betting any 2 all 3 streets. Even 23o wins money here by just calling down whenever a pair is flopped and folding otherwise.
But if opponent will check down bad holdings that don't hit, and the rake is taken into account, it's not worth playing the worst of holdings. 23o has less than 28% equity against a random hand. Perhaps 35% equity would be worthwhile to call? If so, any hand with both cards higher than a 4 and any hand with an 8 or higher is about the cutoff for 35% The exceptions are that suited 3s other than 32s are playable, and 82o isn't. If 40% equity is enough, roughly any 2 5 or higher and any hand with a T or higher is playable along with the strongest suited hands not on that list.
I'm sure 40% equity versus random hand is good enough here. 35% might be, but surely isn't much of a mistake to not play the 35-40% hands.
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I generally defend 7,8o and higher, suited connectors, any ace, broadway to about 6 or 7 offsuit any pockets and I am at about 53% defending percentage for the BB.
Sub-question on this topic though: Small blind calls, do you reduce this range? When the SB calls, I will reduce my holdings down to suited connectors or other "drawing" hands, and of course premium hands. My fear is that a hand like Q,7o will be dominated too often with the additional player, even if I hit. Thoughts?
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Actually, if the SB calls you shouldnt fold anything, theoretically. cuz now you're getting 5-1 preflop.
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Actually, if the SB calls you shouldnt fold anything, theoretically. cuz now you're getting 5-1 preflop.
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How can you say this and flame me when I call a lot of weak SC and off suits connectors getting 5:1 +
..???
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by StinkyBeaver
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Actually, if the SB calls you shouldnt fold anything, theoretically. cuz now you're getting 5-1 preflop.
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How can you say this and flame me when I call a lot of weak SC and off suits connectors getting 5:1 +
..??? |
easy because it's Jeff 
I recall you (Jeff) telling me calling J5s in the BB getting 5:1 was bad... hmmmm....
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elipsesjeff
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It is bad, cuz I know you cant play it correctly OOP. But, against a 40% blind stealer, and a guy that will call his SB with another good 40% of his hands, what dont you have equity with getting 5:1? Whether or not you can actually play it is another story.
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