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Early Position Leaks

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Chicago_Kid

02-12-2005, 05:30 AM Post subject: Early Position Leaks

#1 (permalink)

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I've been looking over my early- and mid-position play (1-5) and I'm sad to report that AKo and KQo are two of my "not so good" hands. I raise/re-raise AKo in every position almost everytime, while KQo I raise in all but UTG or UTG +1.

Against a raise or re-raise in early position, AKo is not doing well. While KQ doesn't do well in spots 1-5 at all.

I'm obviously overplaying these a great deal. Any tips on how to handle these hands in early/mid...against raises, post-flop, etc. in full ring.

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elipsesjeff

02-12-2005, 05:38 AM

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Not much you can do if you don't hit an A or K on the flop with these hands multiway. You can only read your opponents better and not cap as much with AKo if they have a high PP or something. Calling down/betting into opponents with these hands is very easy to do, yet very wrong. If on the turn you still have 3 players calling your bet and you didnt spike an A or K, give it up and check/fold it.

I raise KQo in UTG, that way I force hands that would dominate me to either 3 bet me (giving their hand away) or to coldcall me (an even bigger mistake). Also, theres a good chance such hands like AJo and ATs will now fold, making that Ace on the flop that much easier to bet into. Again, if you bet into an opponent and are raised, chances are they have a hand and you should possibly give it up.

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Chicago_Kid

02-12-2005, 05:56 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Does that mean these cards have to be losers in early position?

Just trying to figure out if I go at the pot too consistently, as opposed to letting it go sometimes.

I suppose reads are important here?

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

elipsesjeff

02-12-2005, 06:07 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I dont understand your questions. Raising these hands preflop are a positive expectation. But, its your post flop play that will win or lose you money.

If you are in EP, you have to learn how to play there. Check/raising, betting for value, etc. all determine the amount and often you win. Betting out into the pot is just going to give players the odds to draw out on you. Always be aware of the draws. Playing perfect postflop is a hard concept to master, but, its very profitable once you do.

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Trikflow77

02-12-2005, 06:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

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I kill people all the time with big suited broadways when they raise QJ/KJ/KQ in early position.

My PT stats show only a slight profit from early ep with KQo. I muck QJo/KJo from EP.

KQo is only a slight winner and you can muck it from early EP if you choose.

AKo is more read dependant.... Texture of the board......# of players in the hand.......are they loose/tigh/passsive/aggressive. These things will help determine what to do in eack situation.

Playing overcards is tough and something that takes time to learn, just dont always come out spraying chips....take everything into account.

elipsesjeff

02-12-2005, 06:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

NOT raising AKo from EP is a huge leak. As is raising QJo and KJo and ATo. I am talking specifically about KQo in this situation. Tell me, how big a difference is KQs compared to KQo in EP? Does that 6 % really add enough value to raise it? I'm looking to hit a K or Q when I raise, its the post flop play that matters, giving up a hand included.

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Fnord

02-12-2005, 06:22 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Tell me, how big a difference is KQs compared to KQo in EP? Does that 6 % really add enough value to raise it? I'm looking to hit a K or Q when I raise, its the post flop play that matters, giving up a hand included.

Being suited is huge. It gives you an escape hatch when you get isolated by a dominating hand. It gives you considerable value in a mulit-pot. Quite often you'll pick up something else you otherwise couldn't draw to while chasing your flush. It sets up powerful semi-bluffs that can win the pot without showdown at considerable value. Finally, multi-draws have shitloads of equity when you flop them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

02-12-2005, 06:27 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I raise both KQs/KQo in early ep. I agree that not raising AKo is a huge leak.

All I was telling Chicago is that he could choose to muck KQo UTG and not lose any sleep over it.

What is there to argue? And yes over time the extra 6% is pretty big considering the times you whiff the flop with kq in general. Why do you think Sklansky/Malmuth stress these hands so much?

Fnord

02-12-2005, 06:31 AM

#9 (permalink)

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AJo and KQo from first 3 positions

50,957 hands of 2/4 and 3/6

AJs 30 times: 1.17BB/hand
AJoo 103 times: 0.45BB/hand
KQs 36 times: -0.27BB/hand
KQo 92 times: -0.15BB/hand (was break even until I played a real dog today.)

I used to muck KQo and AJo, then auto-raise, now I'm a little more situational about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

02-12-2005, 06:34 AM

#10 (permalink)

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I agree with you both, its definately a raise or fold hand. No calling should be allowed UTG....

I did kinda underestimate the value of the suited cards, I'm generally always looking for a way to call. I see myself winning more TPGK hands with KQs though than flushes.

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Trikflow77

02-12-2005, 06:37 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Over last 110,000 or so hands first 3 positions:

KQs 82 times: .12 BB/100

KQo 186 times: .01 BB/100

Fnord

02-12-2005, 06:38 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I did kinda underestimate the value of the suited cards, I'm generally always looking for a way to call. I see myself winning more TPGK hands with KQs though than flushes.

Yes, but that flush pot is probably a big one. Also you need to count all of the times you took it down on a semi-bluff or chased a flush and caught something else as they are also as a result of being s00ted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

02-12-2005, 12:31 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

KQo 92 times: -0.15BB/hand (was break even until I played a real dog today.)

Just curious about that hand. If my math is right, you had to lose about 14BB on it? Ow. What happened?

02-12-2005, 01:07 PM

#14 (permalink)

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I always raise AJo UTG (full ring), while mucking KQo.

Interestingly, raising AJo from UTG has really made me a lot of cash (considering the overall strength of the hand).

ArcticKnight

02-12-2005, 05:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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I play 6H 5/10 and 10/20

I know the following is probably wrong on a number of levels, but here is how I play AKo on the button and in the BB. Everywhere else I raise.

On the button, if there are two limpers in already, I raise. If there are three or more limpers, I call.

Before you rag on me too bad, here, let me say that I have found that very few players will fold a 1B raise in the 6H tables I play. I know I am losing value here, but if I like the flop I can play agressivley and beat alot of weak aces and KJ, K10 etc, who will tag along thinking I can't have that great of a hand if I didn't raise.

Also, I don't like being the only raiser, and then having to lay down my AK on the button post-flop when facing an ugly flop and/or some agressive action.

For me from the button, I love the control when when flop hits, and also I can quitely lay my AK down if I need to.

On the BB I play the same way. Large field of limpers I check, small field I raise. (4 limpers won't fold to a 1B from the BB)

Ps. Because I raise or reraise from other positions, players are not likely to pick this up as an "AKo limping trend". In fact, I think this creates confusion for opponents trying to get a read on you.

One more thought. After I win on a limped-in AK pot, it seems I can take down a few pots on agressive play after I raised or reraised pre-flop bet.
I get the sense that opponents put me on high pairs with raises after they see me limp in and win with AKo. That's fine with me.

Feel free to punch holes in this, but I'll gladly take the loss in value betting in the above circumstances, becasue I think I'll make more $ overall. There are more ways to look at value than the outcome of the immediate hand......

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Trikflow77

02-12-2005, 06:43 PM

#16 (permalink)

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who cares if they call you with your AKo. Your hand equity is huge. The more callers, the more you win. I can see limping on every once in a while for deception....but online it does not matter too much.

If 3 people limp pre flop and you dont raise you missed out on 1.5BBs. You MIGHT be able overcome this but what about the times you miss? AK wins unimproved and by limping on the button you are pretty much giving this up. The raise takes control of the hand IMO. Picking up the raised pots by showing strenght far outweighs the limping aspect.

Zinnsoldaten

02-12-2005, 07:11 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Let's say you get 3-bet w/ AJ or KQ and an ace or a king/queen hits the flop. (no backdoors) You bet the flop and get raised. Autofold?

Or 3-bet by a tight player = fold pre-flop?

And yeah, I'm not talking about Pacifics' 8-way action

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

jmontis

02-12-2005, 09:30 PM

#18 (permalink)

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ill fold AQ/AJ if i get reraised by a super tight rock, sounds like logic, but ive seen a lot of people lose to this.

Fnord

02-12-2005, 11:04 PM

#19 (permalink)

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If you get a legit 3-bet, call. If it's 3-bet and capped with 2 sb to you then fold unless you're suited or they're smoking crack.

After the flop, I mostly check/call as the 3-better will often be more than happy to drive reguardless of where you're at. Sometimes I'll mix in a river bet if I'm out of position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

02-13-2005, 12:39 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

1, It's not about caring whether they call.. I want the action, just on my terms

2. "AK wins unimproved and by limping I am giving this up"??? What do u mean. Do the cards change if I limp versus bet?? Does my AK turn into a q-10... think about what you are saying, man. Everyone has twice as much invested if I raise, so they are"less" likely to give up a pot to AK high, uncontested. They now have better odds to play most hands (that's if they are even thinking odds).

Also, in order to win "unimproved," you have to take AK all the way to the end uniproved. With a large field and any action whatsoever you probably don't have the odds to take your unimproved AK past the turn, so how do you win uncontested in either situation. Do YOU call bets on the turn or river with your A high often?

Anyway, to each his own, but when I see someone drag their missed-flopped AK all the way to the river, I,m thinking here's another fish that can't let go of AK becasue he thought he was "entitled" to the pot....
I'd like a table full of these players...

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

02-13-2005, 01:46 AM

#21 (permalink)

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This fish loves taking AKo to the river

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with K

, A

.
2 folds, Fnord raises, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 7

, 7

, 3

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 2

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (5.66 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Kc Ad (one pair, sevens).
CO has Ah Jh (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 7.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A

, K

.
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 4

, 9

, T

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 5

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Fnord checks.

River: (4.16 BB) 4

(4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, MP folds, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 6.16 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ah Ks (one pair, fours).
BB has Qh 2h (one pair, fours).
Outcome: Fnord wins 6.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with A

, K

.
2 folds, SB raises, Fnord 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8

, 6

, 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB raises, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

River: (7 BB) 4

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has As Kh (one pair, eights).
SB has 9d Jh (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, K

.
UTG raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 6

, T

, 3

(2 players)
Fnord bets, UTG raises, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets, Fnord calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J

(2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 5h Kh (high card, king).
Fnord has Ac Kd (high card, ace).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.50 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with A

, K

.
Fnord raises, MP calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) T

, 3

, 5

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, MP calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 6

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, MP calls, BB folds.

River: (6.66 BB) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 8.66 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ac Kd (high card, ace).
MP has 4c Qc (high card, queen).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, K

.
6 folds, Button raises, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8

, 2

, 7

(2 players)
Fnord bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9

(2 players)
Fnord bets, Button raises, Fnord calls.

River: (8.50 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below:
Button has Kh Js (high card, king).
Fnord has Ah Ks (high card, ace).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.50 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, K

.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q

, 4

, 9

(4 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (6 BB) Q

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets, Fnord calls.

River: (8 BB) Q

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Ts 3s (three of a kind, queens).
CO doesn't show.
Fnord has Ad Kh (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Fnord 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) 5

, 5

, 4

(3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) T

(3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (9.16 BB) 9

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has Jh Kh (one pair, fives).
Fnord has Ah Kc (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with A

, K

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 3

, 3

, T

(3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 5

(3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 folds, Fnord calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 8

(2 players)
UTG calls $5 (All-In), Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 10.33 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 6h 9h (one pair, threes).
Fnord has Ah Kc (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.33 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

02-13-2005, 01:53 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Raising AKo from the BB against a large field is an old argument. It's a trade-off between pushing an edge now vs being better able to push an edge later. However, if you fail to raise AA/KK/AKs you're giving up way too much (some will argue you should never raise from the blinds for deception reasons, *many* players over-value deception in a fixed format, particularly against really bad opposition.)

o You're probably going to need help
o Playing missed over-cards out of position in a raised pot is one of the toughest positions to play out in hold'em.
o However, raising the pot pushes the edge you have NOW and gives you odds to see the turn and/or river depending on the board. Failing to raise good cards lets off the trash hands too cheap.

More often than not I just raise and come out guns blazing, if only to balance out the times I raise other holdings from the blinds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

02-13-2005, 05:18 AM

#23 (permalink)

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What I was talking about is representing a big hand when you whiff.

No I dont call many bets with ace high.... if you limp then you check fold every time you whiff?

If I have 6 callers I am more than happy to raise AK....you have an edge over all the limpers and you will win more than your fair share of the pot. The raise is positve EV and I will make it every time.

Fnords AK hands are exactly what I am talking about.

I understand your point though and Fnords hands are not really what you are talking about because he has less players. IF you think you make more money by not raising...go ahead. I am speaking from an ev standpoint.

ArcticKnight

02-13-2005, 06:44 AM

#24 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Good points trickflow and Fnord.

I rethink this and see how it goes.

At 6h tables the hands come round pretty quick. I just like to mix things up.

Thx

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

ChezJ

02-13-2005, 06:31 PM

#25 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

while KQs is a monster, i feel that KQo is a very vulnerable hand and doesn't merit a raise pre-flop in EP. those who coldcall you will almost always have an ace so you are dead if you flop an ace. you are doubly screwed if you flop top pair against AK/AQ. i prefer to check it UTG, see who raises, then just call. this provides a lot of valuable information about who has high aces and lets the pot grow while maintaining stealth. if i hit the flop, i checkraise the rpf'er.

example. friday night $1/$2 live game. i limped UTG w KQ and the maniac to my immediate left raised as usual. several ppl coldcalled, giving him no credit, and i called. flop came 9TJr. i checkraised in perfect position, since once everyone called maniac, they had to call me too. turn was an Ac, giving me the stone cold nuts but opening a flush redraw. i bet out weakly, hoping to induce a raise from maniac, but he just called, as did several others. river was a blank. i bet and got called down multiway, taking down a pot of over $30.

ChezJ

Zinnsoldaten

02-13-2005, 06:45 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

This fish loves taking AKo to the river

I wonder if I'm losing more not calling down unimproved AK:s than what I save check-folding the turn...

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

elipsesjeff

02-13-2005, 06:56 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

This fish loves taking AKo to the river

I wonder if I'm losing more not calling down unimproved AK:s than what I save check-folding the turn...

No, probably not. I guarantee you Fnord's call down are read and situational dependant. He's just not calling down AKo HU everytime.

Chez:

Raising KQo, in the situation you described, is still a good play. You want to force people to cold call your bets or raise you, giving away their hand. There is a difference in preflop hands and how they are bet. Such as:

You have AQo, you three bet and it wasnt capped; generally that means there isnt an AK. If you three bet AJs, and its not capped, then again, no AK or PP USUALLY. If there are cold callers, then quite possibly there is a KQ, AJo, or weak AQo out there as well. To beat the fish you must think like them.

I say raise KQo as long as AJo continues to cold call. Also, in a tight game, raising KQo will give you the blinds more often than not, and the players with the good hands are more likely to 3-bet you as opposed to just calling. Raise to force other players to make a mistake.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

elipsesjeff

02-13-2005, 07:03 PM

#28 (permalink)

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This just happend:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, K

.
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) A

, 5

, J

(4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.20 BB) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. MP2 wins 8.20 BB.

Its only obvious to what this goon cold called with. I'm guessing AJo or QJo or some other easily dominated hand. Thats why you raise KQo preflop.

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Trikflow77

02-13-2005, 09:30 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Jeff what do your stats show your KQo in EP. Winner or loser????

elipsesjeff

02-13-2005, 10:16 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Jeff what do your stats show your KQo in EP. Winner or loser????

me = loser

my last 11k hands, 2/4 to 5/10, Filtered for positions between 5 and 7 from the button.

KQo: 35 Times,
37.4 win %,
BB/hand -.68/100,
VPIP 82.86
PFR 74.29
WSD 39.46
W$SD 27.27

KQs: 12 Hands
50 win %
1.76 BB/hand (1 flush, lost to A-high flush)

So Basically, my numbers dont say anything due to a small sample size.

I'm on an always raise kinda deal right now, I know I need to work on that.

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Toasty

02-13-2005, 10:28 PM

#31 (permalink)

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wow, i never raise with KQo UTG, i'd consider it suicide for it to be your normal play. I'll call if the game is passive but usually its a fold. Put it this way, in a norm game where its HU or 3way on the flop you're a dog to anyone with an ace or a pair. I won't raise with it until late MP where i have a better chance of picking up the blinds and less chance to run into a bigger hand.

KQs i'll always call utg but again never raise unless its a super tight game where i can win the blinds or a decption play...

in EP I've had KQo 22 times and its up $63.75, not sure if it will stay that way because the sample is tiny but it's looking good so far. LOL i've had it 150 times overall and it's only up $47 maybe i should stick to only playing it in EP

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elipsesjeff

02-13-2005, 11:17 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

I'm curious on your philosophy. KQo is a raise or fold hand from UTG for me. How do you know where you are in the hand if you dont raise preflop? If you just call, any TAG who raises with QJs from LP will make you think you are behind. HU or 3-way KQo is a much stronger hand than your opponent has. And, if your opponent has any ace, they only hae 3 outs to win, where you have 6. You are a coin flip with AJo and small PP; if you raise, you get the advantage here by forcing them to cold call your raise or fold. You are an even bigger favorite against Axo.

KQs is an even worse call. Your suitedness gives KQs significant power. Its one of 3-4 hands cold callable in late position, and should definately be raised with in EP.

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Toasty

02-13-2005, 11:54 PM

#33 (permalink)

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The way I see it is : raising is forcing out hands you have dominated and if you are called then you are dominated.

Calling invites players with KJ/KT/QJ/QT in the pot with you. I'd welcome someone to re-raise my UTG limps with QJs, I have them dominated and my hand is easy to get away from. I find the hand easier to play with a call vs a raise. I also call UTG with ATs, some hands i prefer to play family pots than HU.

KQs is a hand I want to be in with as many people as possible as it can win a huge pot. If you make an ace high straight there will be at least 3 cards in the playing zone and people with 2 pair will be happy to raise with me

I'm not saying this IS the way to play it, but its how i like to play them. I play a weaker game aggression wise than Fnord, but I play off peak hours a lot and I think being overly agg would hurt me more than help me.

also the absence of an ace makes it hard to showdown un-improved.

and calling with hands like this adds a little decption to my game as it's hard to put me on this hand for the people who raise with it.

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koolmoe

02-14-2005, 12:20 AM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

How do you know where you are in the hand if you dont raise preflop? If you just call, any TAG who raises with QJs from LP will make you think you are behind.

Most of the problem here is that you are out of position, and that's not going away because you raise. With many players left to act, the chances of a better hand are too great to make this a consistently profitable play, IMO. I'm not saying I never raise it in EP, but usually only when I know that much worse hands (like any two suited) will cold call. AJo is a hand I'm hoping will fold to my raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

HU or 3-way KQo is a much stronger hand than your opponent has. And, if your opponent has any ace, they only hae 3 outs to win, where you have 6. You are a coin flip with AJo and small PP; if you raise, you get the advantage here by forcing them to cold call your raise or fold. You are an even bigger favorite against Axo.

KQo is behind any A and any pocket pair. The way I see it, you have 6 outs, but they have 42! 2/3 of the time you will be playing catchup to these hands or hopelessly behind after the flop. Some of the times you hit your hand you will still be behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

KQs is an even worse call. Your suitedness gives KQs significant power. Its one of 3-4 hands cold callable in late position, and should definately be raised with in EP.

I raise KQs happily for value, but of the two hands, KQs needs the raise less than KQo, IMO.

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 02:42 AM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

By calling with KQo you arent helping the problem that you are out of position, you are just adding to it. If you don't raise, then the Axs are more apt to call. But, by raising you force the Axs, and all other hands, to call your raise cold. Who made the bigger mistake, you or him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

KQo is behind any A and any pocket pair.

Thats why you raise it, to force the any Aces and pocket pairs to make a mistake by calling. Its much more unprofitable for a 88 to cold call your raise than you are for raising it, especially in a tight game. Pocket Pairs don't call down unless they hit a set. By raising, you are also able to represent anything that comes out scary to the Pocket Pairs. You will hit a K or Q 50%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

The way I see it, you have 6 outs, but they have 42! 2/3 of the time you will be playing catchup to these hands or hopelessly behind after the flop. Some of the times you hit your hand you will still be behind.

You may only have 6 outs, but you have the edge of taking control of the hands. You force them to make a decision of calling your raises, then you force them to call you when they didnt hit. If your K or Q hits the opponent with Ax only has 3 outs. Your opponent will fold more often than call you down when they didnt hit a hand. Most are oblivious to whether you hit your hand or not. Its also not the hardest thing to do to check/fold when theres an Ace on the board with a guy refusing to fold.

You may be behind, but not by much.

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elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 03:47 AM

#36 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

I play 6H 5/10 and 10/20

Do you play these live or online?

I would be interested if you could post your numbers.

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ChezJ

02-14-2005, 04:34 AM

#37 (permalink)

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in any full table you can count on 1-3 aces being dealt out. so if you have KQo, you are behind and you need to catch something to overtake the aces out there.

at a passive table full of calling stations, there will be people cold calling your pre flop raise with ace-any or ace-ten-or-better. is it a mistake for them to cold call you? as a matter of principle, yes. in this specific case, no, because they are ahead of you and it's okay to cold call if you think you are ahead. any pocket pair that cold calls is also ahead of you.

at a passive table, people cold call with AK/AQ/QQ/KK/AA all the time. they figure that re-raising is unnecessary because (a) it won't fold anyone out of the hand, (b) there's enough money in there already, or (c) they're happy to sit back and let you blast away until they ambush you on a later street. so there is less information to be gained since they are not 3-betting their hands, they are just cold calling like always.

as i said earlier, i think there is more information to be gained when you let the other guys do the raising. depending on the player, i may put them on AQ/AK or i may put them on QJs or just 55. then call and act accordingly.

i understand what you are saying about raising for information but i think it would only work at a tight aggressive table. which begs the questions: (a) why would you play at such a table, and (B) what do you do when you are re-raised and figure you're dominated -- fold or call?

ChezJ

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 04:54 AM

#38 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

in any full table you can count on 1-3 aces being dealt out. so if you have KQo, you are behind and you need to catch something to overtake the aces out there.

For every ace that is out on the board that is just one more card that helps you out, their outs are shared amongst each other. The aces that are dealt to the crap hands will fold to the preflop raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chezj

at a passive table full of calling stations, there will be people cold calling your pre flop raise with ace-any or ace-ten-or-better. is it a mistake for them to cold call you? as a matter of principle, yes. in this specific case, no, because they are ahead of you and it's okay to cold call if you think you are ahead. any pocket pair that cold calls is also ahead of you.

You can only imagine the glea on my face when I raise from UTG and get 4 cold callers. Its slightly less profitable for them to cold call you from your perspective. However, its even less profitable for them to cold call with just about any hand. The only hand that can possibly make up for the preflop mistake of cold calling is a pocket pair. Dont think that because you are ahead at the moment you should be cold calling. Thats why you dont cold call 22 when AK raises. Pocket pairs can cold call all they want, but they will also pay you off as they check/call you down to the river without hitting their set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezj

at a passive table, people cold call with AK/AQ/QQ/KK/AA all the time. they figure that re-raising is unnecessary because (a) it won't fold anyone out of the hand, (b) there's enough money in there already, or (c) they're happy to sit back and let you blast away until they ambush you on a later street. so there is less information to be gained since they are not 3-betting their hands, they are just cold calling like always.

I like these players too. They are only saving me money by not raising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezj

as i said earlier, i think there is more information to be gained when you let the other guys do the raising. depending on the player, i may put them on AQ/AK or i may put them on QJs or just 55. then call and act accordingly.

You CANNOT put anyone one person on a hand simply because they raised preflop. What determines if an LP raisor has AK or 55? Especially if his PFR is over 9, you really have no idea what the hell he has, especially if everyone around him called, he's got a +ev play by raising AXs, you just dont know. By raising, if he then 3 bets your hand, you can then limit the field down to a high PP, or a relatively good AK-like hand. Raising and finding out preflop what your opponent has saves you money post flop when the action is 2x as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chezj

(a) why would you play at such a table, and (B) what do you do when you are re-raised and figure you're dominated -- fold or call?

a) if you are at a tight table, then your raises will get respect and are more apt to steal the blinds.

b) You are already in for 2 bets, you are getting odds to call his one bet preflop. Its then your post flop play that determines who's hand is the best. Consider this hand: You have KQ UTG and raise, a Tag in LP 3 bets you and you call. The board is Qxx, what do you do? Check raise, if he three bets he most likely has AQ or KK or AA. If he just calls then you lead the turn, if he raises the turn then consider folding, as a turn raise usually means he has a good hand. If he raises your check raise on the flop, then call the bet and check the turn. If he checks behind on the turn he has AK, if he bets again consider folding.

You may be out of position, but a Check/raise to most players signals more strength than a normal raise. Only because a check raise requires more thought and lets the other person know you have a hand.

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koolmoe

02-14-2005, 06:53 PM

#39 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I have two points here. One is that you are out of position, and that is not going to change during the hand, raise or no raise. Since you are out of position, the value of the hand decreases, making a raise more marginal.

A second issue is that there are likely to be better hands behind you because of the size of the field left to act. This makes it more likely that a better hand is behind you. If you are three bet by AQ, AK, or a pocket pair TT and above you have made a mistake. The larger field makes it more likely that you are making a mistake when raising.

I would more readily raise this hand in a loose game than a tight one since in the loose game you will have opponents calling with all kinds of holdings that you are heavily favored against. When you win, you will win a big pot. In a tight game, you're more apt to occasionally win a small pot (or even just the blinds) and lose several bets to a dominating hand.

For the record, in early position (5-7 off the button), I raise KQo about half the time. My results are slightly positive when limping but slightly negative when raising. The samples are small (about 200 hands total), though, since I have been mostly playing 6 max for the last several months.

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 07:39 PM

#40 (permalink)

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Im still definatly on the fence with KQo, and not so much with AJo when in EP.

I see both sides of the argument and to me they both are valid arguments. Is it just possible that KQo is a break even hand UTG and raising it will just increase your variance?

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Trikflow77

02-14-2005, 07:47 PM

#41 (permalink)

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Bingo!!!!! Its actually a slight loser though

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 07:54 PM

#42 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Bingo!!!!! Its actually a slight loser though

That doesnt mean i wont stop raising it though, especially if running good. If i'm on a downswing I'll take it into consideration.

Its been a though provoking thread, however, I would like to say that IF you play it you should raise it, that I know.

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koolmoe

02-15-2005, 12:19 PM

#43 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Im still definatly on the fence with KQo, and not so much with AJo when in EP.

I agree with this. Things that give AJo more power than KQo:

o The A gives the hand more showdown power if unimproved.
o There are no overcards or overpairs to fear if you spike the A on the flop.
o If you spike the J you have top kicker.

koolmoe

02-15-2005, 12:26 PM

#44 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I would like to say that IF you play it you should raise it, that I know.

The only thing I would add here is that, in Small Stakes Holdem, the authors suggest limping KQo from early position in a tight game (3-5 to the flop on average).

Like I said earlier, I think a raise can make it easier to play, but I'd like to be getting action from worse hands if I do raise it. That won't happen in a tight game.

Zinnsoldaten

02-15-2005, 05:23 PM

#45 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

The only thing I would add here is that, in Small Stakes Holdem, the authors suggest limping KQo from early position in a tight game (3-5 to the flop on average).

The suggestion also mentions limping AJ and "Any two suited 10 or higher". Anyone doing this profitably? Raising them profitably?

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elipsesjeff

02-15-2005, 06:01 PM

#46 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

The only thing I would add here is that, in Small Stakes Holdem, the authors suggest limping KQo from early position in a tight game (3-5 to the flop on average).

The suggestion also mentions limping AJ and "Any two suited 10 or higher". Anyone doing this profitably? Raising them profitably?

Dont get them nearly enough really to notice. I usually fold JTs and QTs in EP. Raising AJo has been profitable for me.

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Zinnsoldaten

02-15-2005, 06:14 PM

#47 (permalink)

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How many expected limpers would you suggest for limping with KTs or QJs?

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elipsesjeff

02-15-2005, 06:24 PM

#48 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

How many expected limpers would you suggest for limping with KTs or QJs?

Dont need too many. I *might* raise if I'm running good.

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Fnord

02-15-2005, 06:50 PM

#49 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

How many expected limpers would you suggest for limping with KTs or QJs?

None. I raise both behind lots of limpers, particularly if my raise is likely to buy me the button. KTs is a limp UTG at all but the worst tables. QJs is either a raise or limp UTG at any table. I also open-raise both from MP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chicago_Kid

02-16-2005, 05:48 AM Post subject: KQ Experiment

#50 (permalink)

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Great discussion, all.

I think I will try the following and see how it goes:
Pre - EP:
- Not play it UTG.
- Fold to a raise in front of me.
- Limp only at LAP tables.
- At fairly tight tables--fold
Pre-MP:
- Later raise if not already raised.
Post - EP:
- be ready to ditch if (1) lots of people call and I miss the flop, (2) if an A hits, (3) or the board coordinates multi-way.

I will say I'm wary about limping with this hand cause I feel like I open myself up to small pairs and suited connectors that can hit big and drain me. But, I've got to try something different.

Any thoughts on this experiment? Given that this is my worst hand, profitability-wise (bigtime overplay), I think it's worth the special attention.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

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