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| Chopper |
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i'm actually embarrassed in asking, but please help me through this example so i understand "counterfeiting." playing O8. you hold A 2 T T and flop is 3 4 8 rainbow. you hit your nut low, that i see. but, you are still vulnerable as far as the low is concerned? any A or 2 on the turn or river counterfeits you? why? you would play the 8 4 3 2 A for the nuts. is it because you would pair? that shouldnt matter because of using the 8 4 3, right? so, it has to be that if the A hits, anyone with any 2 splits with you? and the same for the 2? any A out there in a hand now earned a split? kind of like in HE where you have 7 8 on a 4 5 6 flop and the turn brings the 7? now any 8 splits with you (obv, im leaving out the possibility of 89 taking your $$)? please tell me thats right. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece! 
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | ||||
| bigspenda73 |
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The low is the lowest 5 card hand 8 and under STARTING with the highest card of the five. I.E. 8432A would lose to: 7642A would lose to: Say the flop is 843 like you mentioned and you hold AKK2, yes you flopped the nut low and an overpair, a nice hand for sure, however, any A/2 and your hand becomes extremely vunerable. Say your opponent has a hand like 5678 and a deuce hits the turn. Now your low is 8432A His low is 65432 (beating your 8 hi low) PLUS he has the nut high. That's counterfeiting, it's why hands like A29T can be tough and why it's good to have a hand like AA24 so you have counterfeit PROTECTION. |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| BTW, not a silly question at all, board-reading is a very important skill of Omaha and even moreseo in Omaha Hi/Lo split. | |||
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| swiggidy |
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Usually I see people talk about counterfeiting when you have a low draw. If the board was 34T and the turn brought a 2, now you're loosing to a crap hand like 78xx. You still have a re-draw to the nuts, but you're currently loosing the low. (damn you're good spenda, especially the stealthy post whoring) |
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| Chopper |
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some of you NLHE vets getting after the O8 games now? i can see why the fish are out percentage wise. i know its more a game of math, but seems like the "learning curve" is a bit slower than HE...giving the sharks a bit more time to catch their fishies. seems like an interesting twist. the hand example came of one of the links in the sticky. any other spots i should read on starting hand selection, hand strengths, etc? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Chopper, check the vid section, Hypermegachi has an 08b video, it's limit not pot-limit, but it's a good place to start to see the game in action. | |||
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| bigspenda73 |
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| gengar |
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I still play limit ring HE a lot of the time just because it's the fastest way to clear Ironman on FT (much faster than Omaha/O8, obviously), but otherwise, Omaha/O8 is great. Also, this is not a dumb question by any means. I still see the occasional player who just doesn't understand this concept (I have witnessed "WTF"-type rants in chat), so it's good you are asking questions now instead of making mistakes later. |
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| Chopper |
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| well that said, i will try and post a couple of hands. i cant believe some of the shit i saw/participated in tonight. i want some review, as i still dont have a clue about strength. all i was doing was looking for potential, and not a lot of betting unles i had a nut high or low (nut lows are often split, and i dont think people new to the game realize that one). | |||
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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i gotta get in on this whoring thing.  seems everyone plays for the lo, and hopes to get lucky on the hi? you cant get an A2 out for nothing, unless the A or 2 falls...not that you try an push them out... heres one...bad turn lead? i figure to have a draw to the nuts. if i can take the high, then all else are dead money or fighting to split the lo, right? Poker Stars Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.02/$0.04 10 players Converter Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with 3  4 J  K UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero (poster) checks. Flop: 7 5  A (7SB, 7 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks. Turn: 3 (3.5BB, 7 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls. River: 4 (9.5BB, 3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Button calls, Hero calls. Results: Final pot: 21.5BB heres two...do i still draw for the nut flush here? my outs have to be tainted in a smallish pot. dont i really need like 8:1 to call this based on the fact i prolly cant win the Lo? Poker Stars Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.02/$0.04 8 players Converter Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with J A 3  K UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks. Flop: 3 8 Q (4.5SB, 4 players)BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button checks. Turn: 6 (2.25BB, 4 players)BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, BB calls, Hero folds. River: 9 (5.25BB, 3 players)BB bets, MP2 calls, Button folds. Results: Final pot: 7.25BB three...my guess is AA, and all other overpairs, suck in O8? and especially on paired boards. too easy for someone to catch trips? and again with no realistic shot at the low, arent i hanging on pretty thin here? Poker Stars Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.02/$0.04 10 players Converter Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with J A A 6 UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 4 9 9 (7SB, 7 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds. Turn: 3 (5BB, 3 players)UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, UTG calls. River: 4 (7BB, 2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks. Results: Final pot: 7BB four...was this a spot to fold? didnt look like i could hit a low with the 2 and 3 paired in my hand, and no potential at the high.. Poker Stars Limit Omaha Ring game Limit: $0.02/$0.04 10 players Converter Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with Q 3 A 2 UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 3 7 2 (6SB, 6 players)SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero folds. Turn: T (5BB, 4 players)SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls. River: 8 (9BB, 4 players)SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds. Results: Final pot: 11BB |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| salsa4ever |
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so the way to generate discussion is to title all my threads with "dumbest post ever"?  Basically when playing O8 you should always be reading up from the lowest non-board card. So if the board is 468 the best low is A2, then A3, then 23, etc. if the turn comes a 2, then best low is A3, then A5, then 35 then river is an Ace, and the best low is 35 for the nut straight but on the 4682A board, after 35 comes the one card lows. So now again A3, 23, 43, and 63 are the 2nd nut low, and a hand like A23K is probably bettable for value. Here's an example of counterfeiting. See how I'm winning the high with the straight, and he's winning low with A2. But when the river comes an Ace, my 36 is good for the scoop. FullTiltPoker Game #3465592753: Table Ocean Edge - $2/$4 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 0:29:45 ET - 2007/09/05 Seat 2: Dorsal Fin ($625.90) Seat 3: tptplayer ($411.90) Seat 4: TEAMREDLINE ($26.05) Seat 5: CEP ARROWHEAD ($588.60) Seat 6: Flipz1337 ($476.65) Seat 7: DAMOTORMAN ($176.10) Seat 8: MegaDisgruntled ($403.80) Seat 9: salsa4ever ($1,053.15) Flipz1337 posts the small blind of $2 DAMOTORMAN posts the big blind of $4 The button is in seat #5 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to salsa4ever [6h 3s Ah 7d] MegaDisgruntled raises to $8 salsa4ever calls $8 Dorsal Fin has 15 seconds left to act Dorsal Fin folds tptplayer calls $8 TEAMREDLINE folds CEP ARROWHEAD has 15 seconds left to act CEP ARROWHEAD folds Flipz1337 calls $6 DAMOTORMAN calls $4 *** FLOP *** [8s 5h Kc] Flipz1337 checks DAMOTORMAN checks MegaDisgruntled bets $40 salsa4ever calls $40 tptplayer folds Flipz1337 folds DAMOTORMAN folds *** TURN *** [8s 5h Kc] [4s] MegaDisgruntled bets $120 salsa4ever raises to $480 MegaDisgruntled calls $235.80, and is all in salsa4ever shows [6h 3s Ah 7d] MegaDisgruntled shows [5d Kd As 2d] Uncalled bet of $124.20 returned to salsa4ever *** RIVER *** [8s 5h Kc 4s] [Ac] salsa4ever shows a straight, Eight high, for high andsalsa4ever shows 6,5,4,3,A, for low MegaDisgruntled shows two pair, Aces and Kings, for high andMegaDisgruntled shows 8,5,4,2,A, for low salsa4ever wins the high pot ($414.30) with a straight, Eight high salsa4ever wins the low pot ($414.30) with 6,5,4,3,A MegaDisgruntled is sitting out *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $831.60 | Rake $3 Board: [8s 5h Kc 4s Ac] Seat 2: Dorsal Fin didn't bet (folded) Seat 3: tptplayer folded on the Flop Seat 4: TEAMREDLINE didn't bet (folded) Seat 5: CEP ARROWHEAD (button) didn't bet (folded) Seat 6: Flipz1337 (small blind) folded on the Flop Seat 7: DAMOTORMAN (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 8: MegaDisgruntled showed [5d Kd As 2d] and lost with HI: two pair, Aces and Kings; LO: 8,5,4,2,A Seat 9: salsa4ever showed [6h 3s Ah 7d] and won ($828.60) with HI: a straight, Eight high; LO: 6,5,4,3,A your hands look OK AA6 is a pot limit hand, not a limit hand |
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| Chopper |
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thanks for the help. now i remember what it was like to play HE for the first time. we are all clueless at some point. i can, however, see lots of donkeys in O8, i just havent figured out how to exploit them yet (as i have no clue myself), but, boy, they are out there like ants. by all means i was not expecting comments saying how well i played. i just wanted to hear those were decent/good starting hands, and that i didnt get overly stupid post flop. at .02/.04 that really ought to be enough to form a foundation from. another question, since the thread is catching some eyeballs... bankroll requirements? same as HE? 300+bb's for limit/40 BIs for PL/NL? i want to learn low, but when i get a bit comfy, i plan to step it up about 1/2 way into my roll, and see what i can do. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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here's another hand. isnt this a pure monster pf? i have nut-draws all over the place. so, i raise it up for potential? PokerStars Game #11940171659: Omaha Hi/Lo Limit ($0.02/$0.04) - 2007/09/08 - 11:21:27 (ET) Table 'Iphidamas II' 10-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: B3000 ($2.90 in chips) Seat 2: clobabe ($1.46 in chips) Seat 4: 55rock ($0.69 in chips) Seat 5: BrunoPT ($0.26 in chips) Seat 6: Bad_Flapper ($1 in chips) Seat 7: pfsbulldawg ($1.90 in chips) Seat 8: hilsamania ($0.57 in chips) Seat 9: HOLLYBUG ($0.72 in chips) Seat 10: horseroyal ($0.96 in chips) HOLLYBUG: posts small blind $0.01 horseroyal: posts big blind $0.02 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pfsbulldawg [Ac Qc Kd As] B3000: folds clobabe: calls $0.02 55rock: folds BrunoPT: calls $0.02 Bad_Flapper: calls $0.02 pfsbulldawg: raises $0.02 to $0.04 hilsamania: folds HOLLYBUG: calls $0.03 Bad_Flapper said, "ty" horseroyal: calls $0.02 clobabe: calls $0.02 BrunoPT: calls $0.02 Bad_Flapper: calls $0.02 *** FLOP *** [Td Ad 4h] HOLLYBUG: checks horseroyal: checks clobabe: checks BrunoPT: checks Bad_Flapper: bets $0.02 pfsbulldawg: raises $0.02 to $0.04 HOLLYBUG: folds horseroyal: folds clobabe: folds BrunoPT: folds Bad_Flapper: calls $0.02 *** TURN *** [Td Ad 4h] [3d] Bad_Flapper: checks pfsbulldawg: checks *** RIVER *** [Td Ad 4h 3d] [8d] Bad_Flapper: checks pfsbulldawg: bets $0.04 Bad_Flapper: calls $0.04 *** SHOW DOWN *** pfsbulldawg: shows [Ac Qc Kd As] (HI: three of a kind, Aces) t1tpfdc joins the table at seat #3 Bad_Flapper: shows [Qs Th Ah Ts] (HI: three of a kind, Tens) pfsbulldawg collected $0.39 from pot No low hand qualified *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $0.40 | Rake $0.01 Board [Td Ad 4h 3d 8d] Seat 1: B3000 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: clobabe folded on the Flop Seat 4: 55rock folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: BrunoPT folded on the Flop Seat 6: Bad_Flapper showed [Qs Th Ah Ts] and lost with HI: three of a kind, Tens Seat 7: pfsbulldawg showed [Ac Qc Kd As] and won ($0.39) with HI: three of a kind, Aces Seat 8: hilsamania (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: HOLLYBUG (small blind) folded on the Flop Seat 10: horseroyal (big blind) folded on the Flop did i maximize value w/o doing anything dumb? there was nut potential all over the place pf. when i flopped the A, i wanted to force a mistake out of them by calling 2 cold (or is that a HE move not conducive to O8?). i thought they'd all call at such low stakes. should i have raised here or waited for the turn? checked the 3 flush, looking for my 10+ out redraw (should i have bet that anyway?), and popped the river with the nuts. is that about right? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Pelion |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| Chopper |
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| where would you say it starts getting tighter? | |||
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| swiggidy |
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It's not bad at 25PLO. Salsa's def onto something, he's like the omaha whisper. Dud called with nut low and a pair of 5s at 400PL. I'm not that good at HE, I'm doing better at omaha. So that's why I switched. |
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| Chopper |
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can anyone devise a "sticky?" i know this would be tough, but i am having one hell of a time finding anything on the net about O8. NL, PL, FL, no difference what someone writes about. for now i am testing out limit. i know the variance is larger, like HE, but the risk can be less when you dont have a friggin' clue what youre doing. starting hands are a bit confusing to identify at first. and, theres not much explanation as to WHY a starting hand is powerful...other than "it can make a nut high and nut low." whoopidy doo. anyone with two brain cells (jury still out on me there ) can figure that A A 2 3 DS is a nice hand to have, especially when the flush draws hit with wheel cards.but, what about 6h 6d 7h 8d? that hand does have a little potential to a wheelish flop, yes? what about defining a flop? they say that you should see where your hand is heading, but there are soooo damned many people in a pot in a FLO8 game that runner-runner happens with regularity, it seems. kind of like NLHE for play money. how can i quickly count the draws/outs to the nuts? 10 sec isnt enough for me, yet. hell, 30 puts the pressure on. i understand that when the board is paired, you can virtually guarantee the boat is out there, no matter how obscure it looks...its there. nut lows are easy enough to find, too. but how about the straight possibilities when the board comes rainbow? should you still chase a flush draw/boat draw when no one will fold, but the bet sizes just doubled? seems if you do, you do a lot of chasing...your tail. basically, when do you give up on a flop, and when do you chase a bit for cheap? please dont say, "experience" because i have been playing for about 3 days solid (dealing out hands on the kitchen table as much as possible, too) just trying to gain an eye for strength. i understand that means i've no experience whatsoever because i've seen about 5 hands, as slow as the game can be, but, i feel like i am confusing myself more. the weirdest shit wins, imo...most times with hands that shouldnt see a flop. (i guess thats more like the play money NLHE thing) sorry, i'm a bit off the point, but is there any direction when it comes to pre flop hands (with explanation behind them) or how a flop helps/hurts your hand...with examples? thx |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| swiggidy |
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some random, possibly too basic thoughts (I'm thinking PL, not L). Position is important. Don't raise anything UTG, when you raise from CO/BTN with a high potential hand, don't necessarily pot it. You want people with worse staring hands playing post-flop. Raising pre and folding the flop isn't a big leak. blah, I got distracted, so maybe someone will add to it. I also think you're going to see weirder hands win in limit vs PL |
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| Chopper |
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prolly tru. i'm still trying to get the most basic concepts down for now. oh, and yeah...some truly stupid shit wins. ex. i scooped (no Lo) when i carried A 2 5 8 (DS) into a flop and flopped 8 8 5. pure stupidity, but the dummer things were the hands paying me off. -starting hand potential (thinking as a unit, 4 card coordination...not 2, etc) -board reading (this may take awhile at penny limit because absolutely everything is possible) -when to stay in because something may develop -when to get out because something strong pf just got destroyed by a friggin 6d. -etc etc etc once i feel i got a handle on some of that, i may move to questions over bet sizing, raising, etc. dont feel it will take too long (besides the fact i need to get back to the NL grind...got a goal, ya know). today was actually a real eye-opener. i actually had a sense of what starting hand looks like, and when the flop really helped it, and how to build the pot on the flop and turn before my hand hit (because it had so many possibilities). felt good and killed the session for about 30 bb/100. not that that matters...only to illustrate that i ran well pf and built some pots that held up/drew out well. i read that 4ish is a decent win rate (i dont have PTO yet, so i'm not tracking long term)? like HE, can you expect to kill it for 10 at the micros? or is Omaha that much different in terms of possible win rates? opinions/experiences? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| swiggidy |
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you're still talking limit right? I can't comment, besides you probably shouldn't worry about winrates at micro. You did remind me. I was going to talk about post flop a little. 6678 is bad because you make a shitty low and a shitty high. First off, the most important thing is reads. It's way more important than starting hands. Flop, don't bet 2 pair hands OOP. It's burning money. Too many scare cards, they check behind when you're ahead and bet when you're behind. Always bet top set, too many re-draws. Don't play 22xx-66xx type hands flop EP. You run into set/set more often. Don't worry about being free-rolled, no one is smart/good enough (it will happen, but rarely). bleh, short handed table, gotta go |
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| Pelion |
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But that really is what makes a good starting hand. Anything that can hit a flop semi-hard in 2 directions makes a good starting hand (or even one direction in a very loose game). 6678 will make a nut low literally never, and when it makes a decent high (e.g. nut straight/FH) there will usually be low cards out meaning you are playing for half the pot. On top of that your 78 is going to struggle to make many straights when you have 2 sixes in your hand, and your set is almost always bottom set. The point is you can hit alot of flops, but very rarely strongly. In a game where someone always has the nuts that isnt a good starting point. Say the flop comes 4 5 8and some money goes in. How happy are you? |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| salsa4ever |
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You are of course getting freerolled for all your chips by Ac2c Heck even an A246 rainbow is freerolling you. |
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| Chopper |
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i am seeing around 15% of hands, and it seems like when i hit a flop, i really hit it, and when i dont, someone else did giving me little chance. that may just be the nature of the game, but, man, it seems you must be really tight. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| swiggidy |
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and that is the nature of the game (hence don't be afraid to just give up pots on the flop, especially multi-way) |
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| Pelion |
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Hes talking about fixed limit. And there are many starting hand guides for PL and FL e.g. http://casinogambling.about.com/cs/p...mahahilo_2.htm point count system for starting hands. |
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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| salsa4ever |
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you'd be better off with the hutchinson system. I don't personally endorse it, but I'll say it's a lot less bad |
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| Chopper |
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those "point systems" all say that their purpose is to get you started only. and, as you gain experience, you will wander from the rigidity of a point system or starting hands chart. that said, i still like one, and try to adhere to it as closely as i can, but i still play stuff just under the cutoff line just wanting to see a flop and practice while being in the hand. i'll prolly play a bit of PL tonight. and it seems you need to really hit a flop hard, both ways, to continue if betting starts. or, you need to have some serious draws working, and no low likely, to play a hi only type hand. if you have to count on some crazy shit, or only have one solid draw, it seems you are better off looking for the escape hatch. it seems peeling one off just tends to trap you for the river with expensive bets coming. of course, same can be said of HE, too. i prolly played the worst NLHE hand of my life today because i made a horrible pf call of a 3bet, but i kept improving 2nd best the whole way. normally, thats not too terrible, but i KNEW i was beat and stacked off. now THAT sucked...and was extremely stupid. thx for the help/ |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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