Originally Posted by Chopper

i see your point, and think this is a well-constructed article. however, let's debate a few things you claim...

1.. at the very least, you should be mixing it up. donking some and c/r'sing some when pure bluffing.

Originally Posted by Chopper

however to c/r bluff, you need someone to bet, and in lower stakes games you cannot be sure of that. if you want the pot, many times you need to fire first.

Originally Posted by Chopper

leading/donking also affords you the best odds of taking down the pot while c/r'ing actually gives someone who fired at the pot an even better pot to tie themselves to.

Originally Posted by Chopper

2.. all valid points, but in the "air" portion, but with a draw, why arent we trying to take this pot down? if i have air, and you have air, i am trying to a) stake my claim at the pot first instead of letting you do it, and b) building a pot for my draw when i do get called/raised.

Originally Posted by Chopper

3.. but, you MUST be sure villain will bet. sometimes you can't be sure. you are definitely right in getting the extra .5BB, but again you have to be sure villain will even bet. when you have a strong hand, having your villain check behind is terrible.

Originally Posted by Chopper

4.. again, mix it up. if you always go for the c/r, you play right into an observant villain's hands, too. he will be able to b/3bet you with weaker strong hands AND simply call, with odds, on his draws/etc.

Originally Posted by Chopper

now, you are speaking of when YOU have position. flip-flop the situation. how often do YOU donk? if it's "never," it isn't often enough because you allow your opponent to play mistake free poker when he calls behind with proper odds, and you miss those opportunities where he flopped trash and would fold to a simple leading bet. and, if you say "always" again, you are donking too much, and are easily predictable...allowing your opponent to play correctly behind you....checking behind when he has weak stuff or is setting you up for later and b/3betting when he has something strong.

as always, the correct frequency is somewhere in between, and the proper frequency can be achieved with reads and observant play.

fun article, i just had to be a little bitch. lol.

Originally Posted by Chopper

oh, i have a wicked rebellious streak that i havent gotten a handle on since i was 17 flipping years old. if you want me to argue with you, just say "always" or "never" and i will keep trying to prove you wrong. something in me just snaps, i guess.

hell, i even argue with my wife if she says those words. its really strange, and something i work on.....to no avail.

Originally Posted by LawDude

There are at least 2 read-based situations when I think it is +EV to donk:

1. Against some villains, a donk works better as a bluff than a check-raise. The reason is that the check raise puts additional money into the pot and can therefore increase the pot odds on the call. The best example of this is overcards that miss a flop. Let's put villain in middle position with QJ. Hero is in the BB with 76s. Folds to villain, who raises, folds to Hero, who suspects a blind steal and has a good speculative hand, and calls.

Flop is 885 rainbow. Hero has an open-ended straight draw, but villain is ahead with his overcards. At this point, there are 4 1/2 small bets in the pot. If you check-raise, the decision point for villain is going to be with 7 1/2 small bets in the pot-- in other words, he is going to be getting 6 1/2 to 1 on his call with his overcards. If you donk, however, the villain is only going to be getting 4 1/2 to 1 to call.

Now, will the villain fold, call, or raise in this situation? That is read-dependent. But some villains will fold it, and this means that a donk semi-bluff can sometimes be +EV if you have a good read on the villain.

The second one is one asd discussed, but where I just disagree with him. IF your read is that you can get additional bets into the pot by leading out, and you are ahead of the villain's range, you shoud go ahead and lead out. This usually comes into play against maniacs. Many times, they will stop against a check-raise from a tight player (which announces a good hand), but will raise if you donk. So you get 3 bets in instead of 2 with the donk bet. (Of course, sometimes you can get even more bets in by slowplaying to the turn and check-raising or donking there. But this is all read-dependent.)

Originally Posted by Chopper

i think what you are saying here is: "because he donks monsters, he will be more likely to think YOU have a monster when you donk because players tend to read hands like they were playing them from your shoes?"

if so, i see what you are saying. however, i still think it's best to balance your own lines yourself. if you donk your cbets oop or bluffs, donk your made hands as well. if you c/r your made hands and donk your bluffs, you are easy to read. if you c/r your made hands, you need to c/r some of your air and weaker draws, too.

all in all, though, one thing hasnt quite been mentioned...... if you are constantly deciding whether or not to donk a flop, you may be playing oop too often.

Originally Posted by Chopper

i want to know why hero didnt raise the flop and charge flush draws that arent folding? and, why hero didnt cap the turn, as played? all you are worried about are 88 and 22. you dont want to see a heart, and are gaining value a large portion of the time simultaneously, imo.

if i am UTG1, i c/r here because i want you to clarify to me how much you like your hand with a 3bet. hero raised pre, so i am likely behind a portion of his range....and would like to know soon. i dont see hero raising a donk lead from me with AT-AQ. if i were villain and hand AK, however, i lead and hope to get 3bets in when someone aggro raises their draw.