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Does the raise any ace rule apply to limit?

  
 
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littleogre
Old 11-21-2006, 07:50 AM     Post subject: Does the raise any ace rule apply to limit? #1 (permalink)  

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 I know i always here the guys on tv saying you should raise any ace in a short handed game but that in in nl tourney poker. does that same tactic work in a limit cash game?
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euphoricism
Old 11-21-2006, 08:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Abso-fuckin-lutely not.
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Nehmer
Old 11-21-2006, 08:24 PM #3 (permalink)  
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This really depends on how short handed. 2-4 handed, I am definately raising any ace preflop. 5-6 handed, I'm raising most aces unless I'm UTG.
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euphoricism
Old 11-21-2006, 08:36 PM #4 (permalink)  
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An intriguing part of playing 3 and 4 handed is your perceived range on the button. I'm often TIGHTER 3-4 handed on the button than I am at a 6 handed table. People -expect- you to steal with junk in a 3 handed game, and theyll play back at you accordingly.
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elipsesjeff
Old 11-22-2006, 03:52 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 Yeah, the ace gets dominated pretty fast but then again you're ahead of many hands that call you in a shorthanded game. The argument for not raising 78s Eupho is because they'll expect it. You should raise Ax for value.


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NWNewell
Old 11-22-2006, 11:46 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Abso-fuckin-lutely not.
lol....

My sentiments exactly. But I figured I would leave the reply to someone who is experienced in NL as well and could better explain the difference between NL and Limit and why raising any Ace is often effective in NL but rarely in Limit (especially FR).

I could wing it, but would be talking out of my a** most of the time (not that most of my posts are much different )
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euphoricism
Old 11-22-2006, 05:02 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Heh Newell, you'll still have to wait for that guy. Sure aint me.

Did you hit up family day at the space center? I should have given you a call. It was pretty badass! Closest I'll ever get to a space shuttle. Four feet away!
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NWNewell
Old 11-22-2006, 05:56 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Unfortunately, I didn't get to go (not that I missed out on much because I get to climb around the shuttle everyday , but I wish I would have been able to take my fiancée through on family day.) I was moving all day that day.

So, eupho, as your luck would have it, if you would have hit me up, I probably would have tried to sucker you into helping me move... lol, jk.

It is pretty bad ass though... I'm glad you got to go check it out.

Sometimes I get caught up in the job and working the issues and forget how cool it actually is.

But then every once in a while I'm standing where they three main engines should be or just standing around near it, I think, "3 days ago this bitch was doing Mach 25 in space for two weeks and getting cooked at 3000F..... this is bad ass!"

Then on the other hand, I think, "NASA has me making decisions on flight safety and structural integrity of this thing.... NASA is not as smart as everyone thinks!!" lol... just kidding... besides, it's not like I'm the only one making the decisions. There are usually many people involved, especially in the bigger decisions (sometimes too damn many).

But I'll admit, it is pretty cool when my family or friends from PA see issues on TV about Protruding Gap Fillers, or whatever, and I can say that I'm working that issue and weighing in on the decisions.

Anyway, back on topic... I wasn't trying to insinuate whether you, or anyone else, were or were not qualified to make that comparison either.... (you're certainly more qualified than I am) ... just stating that I shared your sentiments and almost typed the same exact response... lol
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euphoricism
Old 11-22-2006, 06:03 PM #9 (permalink)  
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OOOoh, so do you work in the OPF? Definitely the coolest building in there.
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NWNewell
Old 11-22-2006, 06:25 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Well, ok... I exadurated a little. I don't climb on the thing every all day, every day.....

I work (at least my desk is) in a building on US 1 just off the Space Center property. Mostly working issues, having telecons (with people and KSC, JSC, and people in Californa) about issues, mods, etc.

But I'm out in the OPF 2-3 times a week for half the day working with guys and looking at problems with the orbiter. And I can head over there as often as I want/need!

I am often in the OPF (and VAB when they are stacking the orbiter onto the tand and boosters). It is definitely a pretty sweet job.
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littleogre
Old 11-28-2006, 03:52 PM #11 (permalink)  

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 Ok here is a more specific question. Lets say you have an ace with a kicker of 4 or less utg or utg+1. Now in a 1o handed game i'm folding unless it's suited. Do you still fold in a short handed game or do we raise. calling in early position is not an option when it comes to short handed play.

Now i know you guys probably looked at the part above where i say i will call with any suited ace. Well this is assuming that the pot is unraised. I have pt data that tells me a/x suited will show a profit from any position in low stakes holdem.
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outphase
Old 11-28-2006, 04:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I'd recommend fold. It's not for the situations where you hit your pair and win, it's for the situations where you're flat out dominated by a hand that 3 bets you.
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NWNewell
Old 11-28-2006, 05:14 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
Ok here is a more specific question. Lets say you have an ace with a kicker of 4 or less utg or utg+1. Now in a 1o handed game i'm folding unless it's suited. Do you still fold in a short handed game or do we raise. calling in early position is not an option when it comes to short handed play.

Now i know you guys probably looked at the part above where i say i will call with any suited ace. Well this is assuming that the pot is unraised. I have pt data that tells me a/x suited will show a profit from any position in low stakes holdem.
A lot depends on the table style, but....

I don't like rasing weak Aces from early position. Even Short-Handed. Primarily because, as you know, there is quite a bit more raise-or-folding going on in SH then Ring-Games. And when you are raised, it is usually going to be by a better hand and you will often need sigificant help. So, you will be risking 2sb with this play to either a) win 1.5sb or b) loose 3sb when you are re-raised and end up calling with the worst of it. So we are roughtly looking at 2.5:1.5 (risk vs reward) in a situation.

Now I know not all players play well, and people will only call instead of raising or folding. But even when they do only call, you will usually only be a slight favorite against a hand has weak as K9o. So, I don't think that the times when poor players only call will give you enough EV.

In SHL position is often more important than the cards. Much value comes from stealing the blinds, cbetting with position in a HU pot because your opponent probably missed the flop. That is why it is correct to open raise any ace from the button and even CO but you should fold A8, A7, and even weaker suited Aces like A3s & A4s from UGT.

Yes, any suited ace can be profitable in the right games. And that is usually the low limit holdem ring games because they are usually loose and passive, so you are getting proper odds to hit the big hands like a flush or a striaght. But short handed you just don't have it.

And as far as no limit goes, and why it is correct there more than at limit, well it as a lot to do with being able to price people of pots, better implied odds, and a lot of other things that I don't fully comprehend well enough to elaborate on.

But playing weak Aces from EP in SHL is DEFINITLY -EV.
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euphoricism
Old 11-28-2006, 05:38 PM #14 (permalink)  
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nicely written, NW.

But raising any A in NL ring is a death wish too, the raise-any-ace-rule is for TOURNY play when it gets shorthanded.
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