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Do you make this call preflop?

  
 
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Jay67s
Old 07-23-2005, 01:37 PM     Post subject: Do you make this call preflop? #1 (permalink)  
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Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 5.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Flop: (11 SB) 6, 4, 7 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10 BB) A (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button folds.

River: (12 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Not so concerned with the result, was a nice hand though
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Phyl
Old 07-23-2005, 01:44 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Yeah the preflop call looks pretty standard, you can call with a lot of suited crap getting 10/11-1.

Check/raise the flop though.
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gutshot
Old 07-23-2005, 04:45 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Yes. 10:1 is g00t here. And just tell UTG+2 you were feeling lucky when he asks why you called that raise with 85 s00ted.
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outphase
Old 07-23-2005, 05:28 PM #4 (permalink)  
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This hand had implied odds written all over it You could've milked the turn had you not 3bet the flop or even led out, but I'm sure you know that hehe
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-23-2005, 07:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Check/raise the flop though.
no, bet/call the flop, check raise the turn (or donk bet)


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Phyl
Old 07-23-2005, 07:57 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Check/raise the flop though.
no, bet/call the flop, check raise the turn (or donk bet)
Why?

In my experience UTG+2 will usually call the flop bet and you'll end up with one bet off everyone when you're in a great position to get two. If UTG+2 calls you extract less and if he raises you blow away the field. Also if you bet/called the flop why would you lead the turn?
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-23-2005, 08:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
In my experience UTG+2 will usually call the flop bet and you'll end up with one bet off everyone when you're in a great position to get two.
Three-betting the flop completely gives your hand away. Even AA will call you down from here. Check raising the turn instead of three betting the flop will almost guaranteedly give you an extra 2 BB instead of 1. Worst case scenario is you get the same number of chips in this situation. Best case scenario you've trapped Button in for 2 BB rather than 1 SB, so you could get an extra 3 BB on the turn if you give up 1 BB on the flop. The more players you have in the pot, if it was somewhere near 4 or 5, then you are going to want to three bet here because you can hardly ever give up the opportunity to get another 2 BB into the pot.

Quote:
Also if you bet/called the flop why would you lead the turn?
I would use this against extremely tight players who might have AA or even A7. By just calling the flop you make it look like UTG as the better hand to begin with. Donk betting will seem to the average 2+2 player as a 'bluff' by a retarded player when that ace hit so there is a good possibility he will raise you. Also, its much easier to get three bets into a pot when you are the person putting the first one in.


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Phyl
Old 07-24-2005, 11:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
In my experience UTG+2 will usually call the flop bet and you'll end up with one bet off everyone when you're in a great position to get two.
Three-betting the flop completely gives your hand away. Even AA will call you down from here. Check raising the turn instead of three betting the flop will almost guaranteedly give you an extra 2 BB instead of 1. Worst case scenario is you get the same number of chips in this situation. Best case scenario you've trapped Button in for 2 BB rather than 1 SB, so you could get an extra 3 BB on the turn if you give up 1 BB on the flop. The more players you have in the pot, if it was somewhere near 4 or 5, then you are going to want to three bet here because you can hardly ever give up the opportunity to get another 2 BB into the pot.
I agree that just calling the raise is better but in my previous post I was arguing that a flop check/raise is the best play. Betting out on the flop will usually get one bet off everyone because 2/4 players don't know how to raise but check/raising has a very good chance of earning two.

Could you explain why leading the flop is superior to check/raising in a passive game?

Quote:
Quote:
Also if you bet/called the flop why would you lead the turn?
I would use this against extremely tight players who might have AA or even A7. By just calling the flop you make it look like UTG as the better hand to begin with. Donk betting will seem to the average 2+2 player as a 'bluff' by a retarded player when that ace hit so there is a good possibility he will raise you. Also, its much easier to get three bets into a pot when you are the person putting the first one in.
Oh yeah, cheers.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-25-2005, 05:13 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Could you explain why leading the flop is superior to check/raising in a passive game?
In a passive game it is more likely to get checked through and you give free cards to everyone. You don't want mister T9 or 89 to stay in the pot for free do you? Also, you are letting someone else do the raising for you which further disguises your hand.


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RiverMonkey
Old 07-25-2005, 07:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Help me out here. At the table, probably without really giving it enough in-situ thought, I think my default play in this situation is to go for the smooth call on the flop and then attempt a CR on the TURN. BUT I'd rather not just blindly make this play every time. After all, some times it gets checked around on the TURN and then you feel like and idiot for not betting your hand. On bad days, you've just let someone suck on you for free.

Let's back up for a minute. This kind of situation comes up fairly often, so it would be nice to understand the thought processes/analysis you should apply in these situations rather than just adopting one default line of play. So, what are the consideration you should apply as the hand unfolds?

What's the best way to play this hand on the flop? (a) Bet out, (b) CR the flop, (c) smooth call the flop, and attempt a CR on the TURN, (d) another line? What if you go with (c) and it gets check around on the TURN, then you've really missed both your opportunities to build the pot.

(a) I really don't see how betting out on the flop here is the best play. You'll either have UTG+1 call or raise your bet. If he raises, he'll likely knock out players/reduce the field which isn't good for your current nut-hand. If he just calls, you've missed the chance to get more bets in on the flop. The bottom line risk is that you don't know what he'll do in response to your flop bet.

(b) & (c) If you just check to UTG+1 on the flop and he bets, then you can pump the pot with a CR, or if you think that will give your hand away and/or you think you might be able to get more money in over-all with a TURN CR instead, you can just smooth call and go for the CR on the TURN. There is a chance that it will get checked around on the TURN; you have to ask yourself how likely that might be? If the risk is too high, then do you just bet out and hope UTG+1 doesn't raise so that you can get the overcalls from the rest of the field?

What about hand protection considerations? Your current nut-hand does have some vulnerabilities (e.g. T9 or 89 as Phyl mentioned).
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Shark Bait
Old 07-25-2005, 07:19 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
no, bet/call the flop, check raise the turn
I like this play. With UTG+2 raising the flop, you calling him looks weak, and is a perfect chance for a check raise on the turn.

Notice how he just calls down after the 3 bet.

And as far as the preflop call, with that many people in the hand, it's worth it for sure.

And I agree with what someone else said before, just tell them you were feeling lucky, so you called their raise.
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