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KY_Ace
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02-28-2007, 03:08 AM
Post subject: Do you ever call the turn OOP planning to fold the river?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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I was discussing hands with a friend of mine who plays 50-100 in B&M and has been playing poker for 18 years and I mentioned that if I'm going to lay down my pocket pair I'm going to do it on the turn not the river, going on saying calling on the turn with 2 outs and folding on the river doesn't make sense. He disagreed saying you can call the turn and fold on the river if you put a read on a guy, typical answer for a B & M pro who can look at someones body language and know exactly where they stand, it's actually scary to watch him play live, especially NL. But how the hell do I put a read on someone online??? I gave the situation alot more thought and put myself in the other players shoes, a pre-flop raiser checks to you on the turn, AJ33 board, you have TJ ( we also have to pretend we called a raise with TJ ) what is your line? they could have QK/KT/QT/TT/99/88/KK/QQ/KJ/QJ there's a reasonable chance that you are ahead with your pair of jacks and you may also make QQ or KK fold if you're not ahead so you bet the turn and they call assumunig that KQ/KT/QT will not call the river and you might be losing to QQ/KK/KJ/QJ you check behind on the river to save a bet. I think the best line with the TJ is bet the turn, check behind on the river, but if you have a good hand like AK/AQ/AJ/AT your obvious line would be bet the turn, bet the river( providing it's not too ugly ) how would someone play QQ optimally aganst your lines? check call the turn and check fold the river. Calling down the turn and river with a pocket pair with an overcard, especially an ace is a losing play against most opponents but calling the turn and folding if they bet bet the river might be the best line against some opponents. How often do you call the turn and they check the river and you know you won before you even see their cards because they checked, or you call the turn hoping they check the river and when they bet you know your going to lose the hand over %90 of the time and it comes down a sick pot odds situation. I think you have to call some players when they bet the turn because they will bet any pair on the turn when you check to them or even bet with no pair and give up on the bluff on the river, you just have to have the discipline to resist the great pot odds situation you are getting on the river unless the player bluffs often eneugh to make the call correct. I don't think that QQ with an ace on board is the only situation where check call turn, check fold river can work. Against a player that you've seen bluff the turn with a draw and give up on the river you might even consider calling the turn with AK on a rag board willing to fold if they bet again on the river while still having 6 possible outs if they're not bluffing.
What are your opinions on this line and what situations do you use it in? How often do you think QQ OOP will be good when they bet the turn and river with an ace on board? Who thinks check folding the turn is the superior line in this situation against an average opponent? Does is seem wasteful to give them an extra bet and fold on the river?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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That's a whole lotta typing. Basically if Im calling with a weak made hand on the turn Im not folding the river unless the worst possible card in the world came. If your hand is strong enough to see a showdown on the turn you just have to be prepared to c/c both streets.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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If I check-call on the turn with a weak underpair because I think my opponent has overcard(s) or a draw, folding is okay if the river is a bad card (such as an ace or a completed draw) and there's almost no chance I have the best hand anymore.
Other than that, check-call the river as well after calling on the turn.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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you're playing shorthanded. just calling down when you have any pair usually isn't that big of a mistake. and you can always use your suck out skills.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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