Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

All Other (Limit) Poker

  > 

Do we still play draws like this?

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Fnord
Old 08-27-2005, 10:40 PM     Post subject: Do we still play draws like this? #1 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 9, 8.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, CO calls, Fnord calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3, Q, 5 (6 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Fnord calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 3 (4 players)
MP1 bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Fnord calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 6 (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
pokerfanatic
Old 08-27-2005, 10:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
pokerfanatic's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
pokerfanatic
Send a message via AIM to pokerfanatic
wow cold call PF, cold call the flop, call the turn and finally dump it on the river? This isn't the fnord i used to know... man o man...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
Reply With Quote
Xanadu
Old 08-27-2005, 10:51 PM #3 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
Xanadu
Fnord, last 3 streets look good, but I'm wondering ... why did you call preflop?
Reply With Quote
thenonsequitur
Old 08-27-2005, 10:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
thenonsequitur's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
thenonsequitur
Were you not concerned that one of the other players in the pot might have had a better flush draw holding (like Ac Qc, or any club draw better than 9 for that matter)?

I don't know if this should much of a concern, so I'm actually looking for an answer to this question; it's not a statement disguised as a question.
Reply With Quote
Nehmer
Old 08-28-2005, 12:06 AM #5 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
Nehmer
looks pretty good to me. Good position and lots of callers preflop, so I think it's an ok spot for a cold call expecting that at least one of the blinds will call and give you even better implied odds(very surprising that they didn't). On the flop there is no reason to 3-bet so calling down and folding the river unimproved looks good.
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-28-2005, 12:44 AM #6 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
NEVER COLD CALL ITS A MORTAL FUCKING SIN YOU MONSTER

It looks fine, except for one nitpicky point. If you believe that your club outs are good, you should cap the flop last to act.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2005, 12:59 AM #7 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
fold preflop
cold calling is for hands like KQs
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 01:54 AM #8 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
This time with feeling...

PokerStars Game #2438412671: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/27 - 21:43:31 (ET)
Table 'Merope II' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Irish_Starr ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 2: FoldEm6 ($40.80 in chips)
Seat 3: KGBNJ ($30.10 in chips)
Seat 4: kwyz ($12.95 in chips)
Seat 5: Beldar69 ($27.15 in chips)
Seat 6: HenryFnord ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 7: glittergulch ($25.10 in chips)
Seat 8: Reesy ($20 in chips)
Seat 9: Rover 21 ($17 in chips)
glittergulch: posts small blind $0.10
Reesy: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [7d 6d]
Rover 21: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Irish_Starr: folds
FoldEm6: folds
KGBNJ: calls $0.75
kwyz: calls $0.75
Beldar69: folds
HenryFnord: calls $0.75
glittergulch: folds
Reesy: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [9d 7h 8c]
Reesy: checks
Rover 21: bets $0.75
KGBNJ: calls $0.75
kwyz: calls $0.75
HenryFnord: calls $0.75
Reesy: folds
*** TURN *** [9d 7h 8c] [2d]
Rover 21: checks
KGBNJ: bets $2.50
kwyz: calls $2.50
HenryFnord: calls $2.50
Rover 21: folds
*** RIVER *** [9d 7h 8c 2d] [5d]
KGBNJ: bets $26.10 and is all-in
kwyz: folds
HenryFnord: calls $20.65 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KGBNJ: shows [Jd Tc] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
HenryFnord: shows [7d 6d] (a flush, Nine high)
HenryFnord collected $52.95 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $55.65 | Rake $2.70
Board [9d 7h 8c 2d 5d]
Seat 1: Irish_Starr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: FoldEm6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: KGBNJ showed [Jd Tc] and lost with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 4: kwyz folded on the River
Seat 5: Beldar69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: HenryFnord (button) showed [7d 6d] and won ($52.95) with a flush, Nine high
Seat 7: glittergulch (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Reesy (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Rover 21 folded on the Turn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2005, 01:58 AM #9 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
but implied odds are better in NL
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 02:08 AM #10 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
but implied odds are better in NL
Sooted connector 6+ way with the button for 2 bets is still a good wager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 02:09 AM #11 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
It looks fine, except for one nitpicky point. If you believe that your club outs are good, you should cap the flop last to act.
Why? I like a bet + lots of calls in front of me when I'm drawing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2005, 02:12 AM #12 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
but implied odds are better in NL
Sooted connector 6+ way with the button for 2 bets is still a good wager.
I guess since the table is loose it might be OK.
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 02:15 AM #13 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I guess since the table is loose it might be OK.
I doesn't matter, look at the action. I have enough hand + position. It's a good wager and my chips are going into the pot. Throw in a couple horrible post-flop players and I'm all over it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Demiparadigm
Old 08-28-2005, 02:16 AM #14 (permalink)  
Demiparadigm's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
Demiparadigm
I love the call, I don't mind the idea of a flop cap. (you may even get a free card(lol)
For those interested, I have been cold calling A LOT recently.
In my last 5K hands(at 3/6-5/10) I have cold called 57 times!
And I have lost exactly 83cents on all of them combined.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2005, 02:24 AM #15 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
I love the call, I don't mind the idea of a flop cap. (you may even get a free card(lol)
For those interested, I have been cold calling A LOT recently.
In my last 5K hands(at 3/6-5/10) I have cold called 57 times!
And I have lost exactly 83cents on all of them combined.
See, now if you cold-called less often maybe you'd be up on those hands
Remember, if you just folded all those hands you'd be 83 cents richer now.
Reply With Quote
|~|ypermegachi
Old 08-28-2005, 03:19 AM #16 (permalink)  
|~|ypermegachi's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
|~|ypermegachi
dunno...this hand looks pretty standard to me, including the preflop CC. you're not gaining/losing much value by capping the flop.
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 03:28 AM #17 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
dunno...this hand looks pretty standard to me, including the preflop CC. you're not gaining/losing much value by capping the flop.
It's so standard I almost didn't post it. But I figured the pre-flop and flop action are the kind of spots where TAggy players make sub-optimal plays...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 04:39 AM #18 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Just to f with your heads...

PokerStars Game #2439603405: Tournament #11834071, Omaha Pot Limit - Match Round I, Level IV (25/50) - 2005/08/28 - 00:16:07 (ET)
Table '11834071 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ClassicCC (1180 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1820 in chips)
ClassicCC: posts small blind 25
HenryFnord: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [5c 4s Ts Ah]
ClassicCC: calls 25
HenryFnord: raises 100 to 150
ClassicCC: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [Td 9h Th]
HenryFnord: bets 300
ClassicCC: calls 300
*** TURN *** [Td 9h Th] [8c]
HenryFnord: bets 900
ClassicCC: calls 730 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Td 9h Th 8c] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HenryFnord: shows [5c 4s Ts Ah] (a full house, Tens full of Fives)
ClassicCC: shows [9s 3s 6h 6c] (two pair, Tens and Nines)
HenryFnord collected 2360 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2360 | Rake 0
Board [Td 9h Th 8c 5h]
Seat 1: ClassicCC (button) (small blind) showed [9s 3s 6h 6c] and lost with two pair, Tens and Nines
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) showed [5c 4s Ts Ah] and won (2360) with a full house, Tens full of Fives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Shark Bait
Old 08-28-2005, 04:53 AM #19 (permalink)  
Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
Shark Bait
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Dealt to HenryFnord [5c 4s Ts Ah]
OMG you're cheating!!! That's too many!
<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 07:10 AM #20 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 4, 6.
UTG calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Fnord calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, CO calls, Fnord calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2, 5, 3 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Fnord bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, CO folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord bets, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord 3-bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Kd Js (two pair, kings and jacks).
Fnord has 4s 6s (straight, six high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 14.50 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 07:25 AM #21 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Fnord is CO with A, Q.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2, K, 4 (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, Button calls, BB folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2 (2 players)
Fnord bets, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ah Qs (one pair, twos).
Button has Js 8s (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Fnord wins 7.25 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Demiparadigm
Old 08-28-2005, 09:49 AM #22 (permalink)  
Demiparadigm's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
Demiparadigm
both good. Did you want feedback or is this your "I pwn 2/4 thread?"
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-28-2005, 10:46 AM #23 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Yeah, that last one got off topic. Besides the 3/6 6 max looks darn nice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-28-2005, 04:30 PM #24 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
It looks fine, except for one nitpicky point. If you believe that your club outs are good, you should cap the flop last to act.
Why? I like a bet + lots of calls in front of me when I'm drawing...
You're closing the action. Everyone else still in the hand has already put in 3 bets, they're most definitely calling one more. You have a very slight edge here, so you should push it that little bit more for value.

Like I said, it was nitpicky.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
Nehmer
Old 08-28-2005, 05:17 PM #25 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
Nehmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
It looks fine, except for one nitpicky point. If you believe that your club outs are good, you should cap the flop last to act.
Why? I like a bet + lots of calls in front of me when I'm drawing...
You're closing the action. Everyone else still in the hand has already put in 3 bets, they're most definitely calling one more. You have a very slight edge here, so you should push it that little bit more for value.

Like I said, it was nitpicky.
It doesn't really matter if they are all going to call the one more bet or if you have a little bit of an edge in this situation. What Fnord was saying is that he wants MP1 to be leading out the turn when Fnord hits his draw instead of having everybody check it to him like they would if he capped the flop. I think having the chance of getting in more money on the turn/river when you hit and are in a hugely +EV situation outweighs the little bit of value you get when capping the flop in an only slightly +EV situation. It might not always be the best play to push an edge just because it's there.
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-28-2005, 11:42 PM #26 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehmer
It doesn't really matter if they are all going to call the one more bet or if you have a little bit of an edge in this situation. What Fnord was saying is that he wants MP1 to be leading out the turn when Fnord hits his draw instead of having everybody check it to him like they would if he capped the flop.
If there's any chance it's getting checked to him on the turn if he caps the flop, he should DEFINITELY cap the flop, and it's not close. I just don't think that's remotely likely. You really think MP1 is 3-betting the flop and not leading the turn just because a flush card hits?
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
Nehmer
Old 08-29-2005, 12:22 AM #27 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
Nehmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehmer
It doesn't really matter if they are all going to call the one more bet or if you have a little bit of an edge in this situation. What Fnord was saying is that he wants MP1 to be leading out the turn when Fnord hits his draw instead of having everybody check it to him like they would if he capped the flop.
If there's any chance it's getting checked to him on the turn if he caps the flop, he should DEFINITELY cap the flop, and it's not close. I just don't think that's remotely likely. You really think MP1 is 3-betting the flop and not leading the turn just because a flush card hits?
I could definately see somebody with KQ or AQ 3-betting the flop and then checking the turn if somebody caps the flop behind them and then a scare flush card hits on the turn. With 3 other people in on the turn, Fnord isn't getting too bad of a price at all for his draw just for the money put in on the turn, so I think he's better off hoping to have MP1 lead into him with the other 2 calling when his flush hits than he is hoping to have it checked to him for a free card when the flush doesn't hit. Most of the real value of this hand is going to come from getting as much money in as possible once he has already hit the flush.
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-29-2005, 08:56 AM #28 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
If there's any chance it's getting checked to him on the turn if he caps the flop, he should DEFINITELY cap the flop, and it's not close.
You got to back that up with numbers, bro. Also, what do you think the chance is *everyone* checks to me gaining me a free card on the turn given how erraticly aggressive online players can get.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2005, 11:51 AM #29 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
If there's any chance it's getting checked to him on the turn if he caps the flop, he should DEFINITELY cap the flop, and it's not close.
You got to back that up with numbers, bro. Also, what do you think the chance is *everyone* checks to me gaining me a free card on the turn given how erraticly aggressive online players can get.
1/8
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-29-2005, 06:15 PM #30 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
If there's any chance it's getting checked to him on the turn if he caps the flop, he should DEFINITELY cap the flop, and it's not close.
You got to back that up with numbers, bro. Also, what do you think the chance is *everyone* checks to me gaining me a free card on the turn given how erraticly aggressive online players can get.
Oh, I think the chance of that is approaching zero, I was responding to "what if everyone checks to him on the turn" statement. Buying a free card in this large pot would be fantastic, but it would also be a miracle. You should read more than the first sentence of one of my posts.

My point was that you have a very slight pot equity edge on the flop which technically you should push.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-29-2005, 06:59 PM #31 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
My point was that you have a very slight pot equity edge on the flop which technically you should push.
Non-nut flush draw, 2 cards to come 4 way. It's probably really close in terms of equity. I'd rather maximize the chance the right guy leads every street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
booradly07
Old 08-29-2005, 07:50 PM #32 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 120
booradly07
To me the first hand seems like less than optimal play because even if you hit your flush outs you don't know if they are good. Is this play profitable in the long term when you add in the times you make your flush but loose the hand? This scares me. Perhaps that is being to weak. I wonder how marginally +EV this call is. If it is pretty marginal then I would probably pass to avoid the extra variance in my current bankroll...

In SSH we are taught how bad cold calling is and how often you should get the opportunity to make a good cold call...something like once every 350 hands if I remember. I know it is mentioned here allot too. I don't recall SSH mentioning how that dynamic changes based on the amount of people you can reasonably expect to be in the pot. In your situation it was easy to see there would be 5-7 people in to see the flop including yourself.

Now, in loose games you can expect to see 5 or 6 people to a flop, especially if 4-5 people have already commited 1/2 BB to the pot before it is raised to 1BB.

So doesn't this put you in ALLOT more situations in which cold calling might look/be profitable? I wish this topic were covered in more detail because I usually will just fold in a situation like this because of some inate fear of cold calling and leaking away money or going in flush dead because of Ax suited.

If I follow the line Fnord took here then I can find reason to do allot more than 1 in 350 hands coldcalling (or whatever the correct number is).

In loose games is there a threshold generally followed by you advanced players in which you decide to cold call based on the odds you are getting on a hand you would have normally just correctly limped with? If so, what is it...obviously this is based on feel so assume your in a loose game where people want to limp in to see the flop with any Ace or King and will call a raise automatically and sprinkle in a few standard cold callers for good measure...

Obviously there is always exceptions to rules and good players know when to make those exceptions. I am trying to suck a little knowledge out of you to help make those good non-standard calls.

Brad
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-29-2005, 08:20 PM #33 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
In SSH we are taught how bad cold calling is and how often you should get the opportunity to make a good cold call...something like once every 350 hands if I remember. I know it is mentioned here allot too. I don't recall SSH mentioning how that dynamic changes based on the amount of people you can reasonably expect to be in the pot. In your situation it was easy to see there would be 5-7 people in to see the flop including yourself.
2+2s first motto for any book is "do no harm." Ed wants you to play better poker, make more money and buy more books. Getting most players to cold-call less, play aggro and stop folding in big pots pretty much does this. Where is the 1 in 350 number? There are so many factors you can't really put that precise of a number on it, you just have to look at each situation in isolation and focus on making the right decision. Not having the right Poker Tracker numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
If I follow the line Fnord took here then I can find reason to do allot more than 1 in 350 hands coldcalling (or whatever the correct number is).
I seriously doubt hands like this are quite so common. On the other hand, just because it's going 2 bets pre-flop doesn't mean your suited connectors go to crap by default. Also, consider position. I play this crap from my blinds and do pretty well without position and draws are much eaiser and more profitable to play with position as it opens up most of your playbook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
To me the first hand seems like less than optimal play because even if you hit your flush outs you don't know if they are good.
I pay off flush over flush every time. My biggest concern drawing to a baby flush is hitting my flush on the turn and the river...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
booradly07
Old 08-29-2005, 08:45 PM #34 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 120
booradly07
Quote:
Where is the 1 in 350 number? There are so many factors you can't really put that precise of a number on it, you just have to look at each situation in isolation and focus on making the right decision.
I don't recall the exact number. If I had SSH with me I'd look it up. The way it was expressed was something like "you should find yourself in this situation roughly once ever 3.5 hours or something like that now that I think about it so I am not sure about the hands. I'll check on what Ed said and post back tonight. Unless someone else has it handy... The way the # or time was arrived at was looking at the calls that Ed says you CAN cold call with. It was something like AQs, AJs, KQs or the like. I am pretty sure it was less than 5 hands. Anyway, taking that # of hands that are playable for a coldcall and then figuring out how often you stand to hold those hands against a single raise when you have yet to come into the pot thus setting you up for the cold call amounted to seeing this situation every 3 hours or so. In multi table gaming online I think I just came up with the once every 350 hands # so that really could be well off...

Quote:
Also, consider position. I play this crap from my blinds and do pretty well without position and draws are much eaiser and more profitable to play with position as it opens up most of your playbook
.

Yes, position is of the utmost concern in making this decions of course. Given CO or Button in this situation I can see a cold call. That is why I am kind of looking for a warm and fuzzy number on what pot odds you would normally want to see in said loose game when you have position to make this an automatic cold call...


Brad
Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2005, 08:50 PM #35 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
SSH says cold call one time in 550 hands

But really it says sometimes it's correct to call with pp's so what it says that realistically cold call once in three hours in a live game.

I actually checked the spreadsheet of starting hands, and it says call with 98s if four people entered the pot already. So it was indeed correct.
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-29-2005, 09:25 PM #36 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I actually checked the spreadsheet of starting hands, and it says call with 98s if four people entered the pot already. So it was indeed correct.
I would wager a fair sum that Ed would enjoy burning a copy of that chart in full view of several readers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
you should find yourself in this situation roughly once ever 3.5 hours or something like that
In a live game, that's maybe 150 hands...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:30 PM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.