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MyNameIs
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10-26-2006, 08:04 PM
Post subject: Do I fold a flush?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8
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Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with K♠ Q♣
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, BB checks.
Flop: 6♣ 4♣ 8♣ (6.5SB, 6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds.
Turn: J♦ (5.25BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.
River: 9♣ (9.25BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, What does our hero do?
Results:
Final pot: 18.25BB
I folded a pot like this the other day with the my flush card as a 4, and almost lost my mind when the other two freaks were messing around with a pair and 2p (no flushes)....so today I was leaning towards a call.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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This looks like a fold to me. You only beat a bluff...and a re-raise in a 3-way pot with you behind him reps a ton of strength.
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Family Cruise IMO
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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I don't like the idea of checking the river when you catch. You were better off betting. With that said, I don't see how you can call 2 cold here with the risk of being 3bet. You have the 4th nuts on a 4 flush board. In most low stakes games, I see K or A raising the river like that.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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MyNameIs
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8
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and hence that is what went down...our hapless hero called the two cold, MP1 made it another for good measure something like 20+ BB by now, so on the 1 in a million I was good, I called it as well. MP1 shows the Ac to take it down. The 2 bettor here had the Jc, so at least I had the 2nd best hand....to bad you don't get anything for that.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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The converter barely distinguishes between clubs and spades--you might want to try a different one;' and I don't understand what the box following the J on the turn is meant to indicate... Club? Something else?
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
The converter barely distinguishes between clubs and spades--you might want to try a different one;' and I don't understand what the box following the J on the turn is meant to indicate... Club? Something else?
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That's a diamond.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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You have the 4th nuts on a 4 flush board
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5th.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Fold.
I would even consider folding the turn. I mean, what are we really trying to do here? With 4 callers, it is very unlikely that we are ahead. And what are we drawing to? A flush, that some else is drawing to a higher one a significant percentage of the time? A pair, got 5 outs... and are they clean, someone already have the flush?
The turn is giving about 8:1 pot odds and I would say our drawing odds are maybe 10-12% at best, discounting to 2.5 effective outs for the pair and 3 effective outs for the flush (Q high flush might win 1/3 or so on this board with 3 others calling down if you are lucky). Giving you about 8:1. I'm just guessing, but as you can see, this is not a real good situation to be drawing to. I think the turn is where the tough decision comes into play. I would think that your turn call in this situation is even money at best.
The river is a pretty easy fold. With a bettor and a caller is it might be tough to fold due to the size of the pot. But even then, the overcall is very tough. (Check out the paragraph called Careless Overcalling on Mike Caro's Artical) But against a bet and a raise, your pot odds are twice as bad, and you are twice as sure you are beat.
Yes, occationally there will be people acting silly and pulling moves with two pair or whatever, but this happens far less often that you think. Our minds tend to remember and exaggerate these times. There is no way two players are going to be bluffing this with a bet and a raise more than the 15% of the time that we need it to to call. Trust me... this has been a really big leak of mine over the past 4-6 months and I'm finally starting to realize this... don't be as stupid as I was and take as long to figure this out as I did.
Basically, I would call only a single bettor because of the size of the pot. Making the overcall is really a tough spot. But facing a bet and a raise is an easy fold.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
Quote:
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You have the 4th nuts on a 4 flush board
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5th. |
Indeed, I didn't notice the 9 gave another straight flush.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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In a huge pot, the river is not the place to make your decision to fold. In early position, you should raise or fold this preflop, and if you have coldcallers in a loose passive game behind you it is more likely a fold. Offsuited broadway cards, especially without the ace, do not play well multiway.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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In a huge pot, the river is not the place to make your decision to fold.
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This is often the case, but has no validity as a rule. On this particular river the board and betting have both changed dramatically. A previously quiet opponent bets out, and an aggressive bettor raises. The pot at this point isn't really all that huge, and it will cost at least two bets to go in with the 5th nuts. You're getting, at best, 13.25 to 2 odds, and I doubt you're winning that often--it's not a clear fold, but unless I have some sense that one of the players is a maniac or an idiot I think folding makes a lot of sense.
Quote:
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In early position, you should raise or fold this preflop, ...
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I think this is also a little too categorical. In a loose, passive game KQoff is not at all a bad limping hand.
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