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Discussion: hyper's 6max limit guide

  
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 12-17-2004, 10:07 PM     Post subject: Discussion: hyper's 6max limit guide #1 (permalink)  
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original thread here...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=5043

i don't know if you guys think it's good so far, or just waiting for me to finish, or just not posting to keep that thread self contained...

anywho, i need some general comments to see if there are any glaring mistakes. thanks!
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-17-2004, 10:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 If i comment on your guide and make yours better, then how am i to win the essay contest?


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Old 12-17-2004, 10:26 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
If i comment on your guide and make yours better, then how am i to win the essay contest?
hahah, you can write the full ring limit guide
we can both be winners!
 
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ttanaka
Old 12-18-2004, 03:12 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hey Hyper, I very much like what you've written. I'd like to make an HTML version of this and put a link to it off the main homepage when you are completed, with your permission and with proper due credit!

Keep up the great work!
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Old 12-24-2004, 09:22 PM #5 (permalink)  
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bump! i added a poll.

EDIT: just for added discussion can you post your reasons why you selected each option?
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-26-2004, 05:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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oooOOooo. With a poll, you've sparked my interest.

If you feel comfortable sharing this with the "outside world" then by all means, you should. The point of this forum is to better other players, hoarding this for the priveledge few seems like a foolish waste.

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You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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elanto
Old 12-28-2004, 08:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I didnt vote, simply b/c this is your guide Hyper and ill agree with any choice you make, you need to put it were you feel comfortable, it all comes down to what u want...


-anto
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-28-2004, 09:55 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Personally, I think it needs to be public.


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Old 12-28-2004, 10:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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alright! then make it public!
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-28-2004, 10:43 PM #10 (permalink)  
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OOOH I get it!

I make good, rational reasons for making it go public and get nadda. Jeff comes out and says "Just make it public" and you throw yourself in line to make his whim reality!?

No respect...

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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:51 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
OOOH I get it!

I make good, rational reasons for making it go public and get nadda. Jeff comes out and says "Just make it public" and you throw yourself in line to make his whim reality!?

No respect...

-'rilla
lol seems like jeff and i always post at the same time...the other post in jeff's operation about what all the PT terms mean...i posted, only to see jeff posted the answer already, so i deleted my post, lol
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-28-2004, 11:20 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
lol seems like jeff and i always post at the same time...the other post in jeff's operation about what all the PT terms mean...i posted, only to see jeff posted the answer already, so i deleted my post, lol
LOL, thats because neither of us have lives and keep FTR in the background the entire day. I update the page like once every 20 mins. I like having the first and last words!


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elanto
Old 12-29-2004, 05:56 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
OOOH I get it!

I make good, rational reasons for making it go public and get nadda. Jeff comes out and says "Just make it public" and you throw yourself in line to make his whim reality!?

No respect...

-'rilla
lol seems like jeff and i always post at the same time...the other post in jeff's operation about what all the PT terms mean...i posted, only to see jeff posted the answer already, so i deleted my post, lol
the messages were ten minutes apart


-anto
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 01-06-2005, 04:56 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttanaka
Hey Hyper, I very much like what you've written. I'd like to make an HTML version of this and put a link to it off the main homepage when you are completed, with your permission and with proper due credit!

Keep up the great work!
alrighty, i've made the final changes. you can publicize it any time you want, or just sticky in the public forums.
 
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Xianti
Old 01-10-2005, 07:10 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttanaka
Hey Hyper, I very much like what you've written. I'd like to make an HTML version of this and put a link to it off the main homepage when you are completed, with your permission and with proper due credit!

Keep up the great work!
alrighty, i've made the final changes. you can publicize it any time you want, or just sticky in the public forums.
I'll let Tyson know that it's done. In the meantime, I'll move it to the LIMIT Hold'em forum, at your request.
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Fnord
Old 01-10-2005, 08:08 PM #16 (permalink)  
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LMAO about going to showdown.

In short handed if I have an Ace or pocket pair and get heads-up to the flop I plan on taking my hand to the river barring some exceptional board or read.

Full table I win at showdown around 60-55%. Pot odds in any game (full or short) dictate that you must go to showdown in a lot of situations where you don't expect to win.

Also consider that taking a weak hand to showdown here and there does some good things for you.

o Gives you information on your opponent by seeing his hand
o Makes you more difficult to bluff if you opponent knows you may take any pair or naked Ace to showdown.
o The inevitable suck-outs this creates give you the table image of a bad player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 01-11-2005, 12:17 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
o The inevitable suck-outs this creates give you the table image of a bad player.
that's just too brilliant!!
 
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Fnord
Old 01-11-2005, 02:10 PM #18 (permalink)  
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BB is the table captain

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with T, A.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Fnord raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 8, 8, 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

River: (6.16 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Jh Qs (one pair, eights).
Fnord has Ts Ac (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8.16 BB.

I say "sorry, I don't fold heads-up". This puts him on tilt and he says all kinds of stuff about me.

The following orbit, table captain is in the SB...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A, T.
UTG folds, Fnord raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) A, K, 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has As Th (one pair, aces).
BB has 5h 5s (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.16 BB.

BB leaves the table...

Next hand, table captain is in the BB

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with T, A.
UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, Fnord raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 7, K, 4 (2 players)
Fnord bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 2 (2 players)
Fnord bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins 4 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 03-09-2005, 03:33 AM #19 (permalink)  
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http://www.internettexasholdem.com/p...hlight=#108080

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-09-2005, 03:47 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 Oooh, he's famous.


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Xianti
Old 03-09-2005, 03:52 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Excel
Old 03-09-2005, 12:48 PM #22 (permalink)  

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This guys view of hpers 6 max guide.

I have to say, since reading the guide, Ive become a worse player.

Maybe short term bad luck, I dont know, but i do feel there are fundamental errors in the guide, like checking in early position when you have a straight or flush draw,

Thats just one aspect, the guide is to passove and passive does not win in 6 max, aggression does.
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Excel
Old 03-09-2005, 12:48 PM #23 (permalink)  

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http://www.thepokerchronicles.com/ar...0942.html#more

duh, its a link not a quote.
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Fnord
Old 03-09-2005, 02:25 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Also, if you plan to play seriously I highly recommend PokerTracker. Pretty useless for no limit
Pointless and flat out wrong.

Quote:
UTG
Open raise or fold.
Keep it simple. Don't open-limp in 6 max unless you have a VERY good reason.

Quote:
SB
You have awesome odds here, so if no one has raised, call with anything suited, and connectors.
No discussion of blinds structure. Also being suited is a lot less useful when you're looking at 2-3 way flops against aggro players.

Quote:
BB
If everyone folds to the button, who raises, don't be a chicken if you have a decent hand. Even A3o is worth calling to tell the button to screw off trying to steal your blind. Having the ace is important though, with K3o the decision is more dependent on your read on the player.
You're trying to cover a VERY complicated subject here needlessly.


Quote:
Suited connectors: There hands are junk shorthanded. Only play 98s or higher, and only in late position with limpers.
Errr?

Quote:
High card hands: These hands go up in value. KTo, weak hand in full ring, strong hand shorthanded. You should not be afraid of open raising with this hand, from all positions.
KTo UTG?

Quote:
FACING A RERAISE AFTER YOU RAISED
If you raised first, and it gets 3bet and capped back to you, muck your hand unless you hold the goods. Treat this as if you were cold calling.
What exactly is "the goods"?


Quote:
Very few players are capable of raising you on the turn without the goods.
Depends on the game. Played much 10/20 6 max?


Overall I think focusing on what's different in 6 max vs full post-flop would be better than trying to cover a HUGE topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 03-09-2005, 02:31 PM #25 (permalink)  
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I agree there are holes in it, but for a noob to 6/max its fine. It might not make you an expert, but it wont make you a complete fool either. I think it is great that hyper took the time to tackle this tough subject, but the factor of the matter is, 6/max is more reading skills. ABC does not work, and you cant teach someone to call down with ace high when you think its good. This guide has been up since I've been on these forums, why is it getting heat now??
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Old 03-09-2005, 04:23 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excel
Maybe short term bad luck, I dont know, but i do feel there are fundamental errors in the guide, like checking in early position when you have a straight or flush draw,

Thats just one aspect, the guide is to passove and passive does not win in 6 max, aggression does.
from the guide:
Quote:
Flush Draws and Open Ended Straight Draws:
You want as many people in the pot as possible. If the table is loose with many people calling to the river with crap, bet out to build the pot. If the table is fairly tight, check with the intention of calling when the button bets, to try and get more callers. If the player after you bets, and people call afterwards, when it's your turn, RAISE. You have nothing now, but no one is going to fold for one more bet. Maximize the pot you can win by raising.
checking is obviously not the default play...

btw, i only recommend being passive if betting will get people to fold. you want to maximize what you can win. and if you check raise with a flush draw and get 2 people to fold you aren't maximizing your profits. if they will call the raise anyway then yes keep on raising!
 
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Old 03-09-2005, 04:27 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
I agree there are holes in it, but for a noob to 6/max its fine. It might not make you an expert, but it wont make you a complete fool either. I think it is great that hyper took the time to tackle this tough subject, but the factor of the matter is, 6/max is more reading skills. ABC does not work, and you cant teach someone to call down with ace high when you think its good. This guide has been up since I've been on these forums, why is it getting heat now??
dunno, maybe people randomly googling are finding it....

i guess many people will criticize for me having default plays. of course if they made it through the entire thing. i guess i should make it much clearer in my next revision. since 6max is mostly a opponent reading game all default plays won't work against thinking players. there aren't very many thinking players out there.
 
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Old 03-09-2005, 04:34 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Also, if you plan to play seriously I highly recommend PokerTracker. Pretty useless for no limit
Pointless and flat out wrong.
yeah that is flat out wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
UTG
Open raise or fold.
Keep it simple. Don't open-limp in 6 max unless you have a VERY good reason.
open raise = open limp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
SB
You have awesome odds here, so if no one has raised, call with anything suited, and connectors.
No discussion of blinds structure. Also being suited is a lot less useful when you're looking at 2-3 way flops against aggro players.
point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
BB
If everyone folds to the button, who raises, don't be a chicken if you have a decent hand. Even A3o is worth calling to tell the button to screw off trying to steal your blind. Having the ace is important though, with K3o the decision is more dependent on your read on the player.
You're trying to cover a VERY complicated subject here needlessly.
point taken. i felt i needed to at least mention it tho...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Suited connectors: There hands are junk shorthanded. Only play 98s or higher, and only in late position with limpers.
Errr?
speculative hands suck shorthanded don't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
High card hands: These hands go up in value. KTo, weak hand in full ring, strong hand shorthanded. You should not be afraid of open raising with this hand, from all positions.
KTo UTG?
yeah that's my personal cut off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
FACING A RERAISE AFTER YOU RAISED
If you raised first, and it gets 3bet and capped back to you, muck your hand unless you hold the goods. Treat this as if you were cold calling.
What exactly is "the goods"?
if you were raising with your borderline hands like KT, A9, JT sometimes it's better off to fold vs a passive player knowing you're too likely to be dominated. "the goods" i mean AA KK AK AQ KQ QQ etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Very few players are capable of raising you on the turn without the goods.
Depends on the game. Played much 10/20 6 max?
not yet....not yet....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Overall I think focusing on what's different in 6 max vs full post-flop would be better than trying to cover a HUGE topic.
lol too late for that!
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 03-09-2005, 06:09 PM #29 (permalink)  
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You could start work on your big re-write. *nudge*

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-09-2005, 06:44 PM #30 (permalink)  
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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
 Where were you guys like 2 months ago when this discussion thread was up before you posted it? Fnord especially. These topics should have been mentioned and brought a while ago so he could fix them.

Ive only been pushing my LHE to be read and criticized, if it gets posted on FTR, screw you guys who failed to mention beforehand the errors in it. God knows I asked enough, as did Hyper.


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Fnord
Old 03-09-2005, 07:27 PM #31 (permalink)  
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Never gave it much thought. Overall, I think the topic is too broad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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ArcticKnight
Old 03-11-2005, 07:33 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Hi

I read Hyper's guide several times, and find good advice there.

The advice on position is good, but I tend to factor in the level of aggression when thinking about position, and don't put as much of a hard break between UTG+1 and CO as Hyper would infer. As I read into it, in 6H the most drastic change in the non-blind positions occurs between UTG+1 and CO.

I have found, though, that this position change is not as significnat at a passive limping table, but is VERY significant at an aggressive table.

A question for Hyper, Fnord, Jeff, Trickflow. rilla, etc.. I am I wrong for playing UTG+1 similar to CO at a passive table (not worried about being slammed with PF bets) and am I wrong for tightening up CO a bit and play it more like the Button when the table is very aggressive?

I realize there are tons of other factors (like where are the aggressive and passive players in relation to me) but is what I am doing correct in general principle?

That is blending aggression (or lack thereof) together with position as I define my starting requirements (which, I should add, I have been tightening all round).

Hyper. Thanks again for the article.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:51 AM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
A question for Hyper, Fnord, Jeff, Trickflow. rilla, etc.. I am I wrong for playing UTG+1 similar to CO at a passive table (not worried about being slammed with PF bets) and am I wrong for tightening up CO a bit and play it more like the Button when the table is very aggressive?
having 2 players left to act vs 1 player left to act is pretty significant (many players will 3bet and isolate you). but since the table is passive, you can get away with it. value bet them to death after the flop.

if the table is very aggressive, just tend to avoid marginal situations unless your postflop play is top notch. since it's aggressive, you'll be folding most hands preflop anyways. it only becomes a real problem in the blinds when you need to protect. and boy oh boy do you need reads to play vs blind steals well!
 
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Old 05-03-2005, 08:46 PM #34 (permalink)  
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pokerfanatic
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Would you mind posting your 6max auto rate rules for PT?
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jmontis
Old 06-18-2005, 12:49 AM #35 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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jmontis
Do you guys think multi tabling 6 max at $1-2 would be better than ring game $2-4?
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