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Dilemma about AQ and AK hands: what to do ??

  
 
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pokerlearner
Old 04-22-2005, 08:55 AM     Post subject: Dilemma about AQ and AK hands: what to do ?? #1 (permalink)  
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I was going through 1500 hands in PokerTracker and here is what I found. I am about -50BB in 4 days. If i didnt play AK and AQ all the times i was dealt, i would have been even money.

AK - win 8/20 times. Lost -5 BB
AQ - win 5/21 times. Lost -43 BB

on the other hand for a weaker hand like KQ

KQ - win 9/19 hands Won - 35 BB


Now my question is this. Its very obvious that I am playing these hands REALLY AWFULLY. I have been sucked out on those hands time after time but it feels like a poor excuse to me.

Now it goes against Maths, and Probability and statistics and everything, but if i start laying down AQ under any position, or not rasing but just calling and folding on flop if i dont pair, does that sound a very bad idea.

Or should i make a variation, maybe raise only when AQ or AK are suited and call preflop and check fold on flop (if unimproved).

I know that after reading tons of books this sounds just stupidity but i just cant resist thinking that if I didnt play only 2 hands, maybe i would have been making money instead of losing .

Maybe once I get a bit better at playing poker, i can add them to my playing hands.
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G_host
Old 04-22-2005, 09:16 AM #2 (permalink)  
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1500 hands is nothing, just wirte in down as variance and keep on playing.
But if you stop playing AK/AQ you will lose money, that's for sure.

Post some of the hands you are uncertain about and get some advice, only to hear that you did what you could can be nice enough when you on a downswing. Believe me we all know this
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Fnord
Old 04-22-2005, 11:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G_host
1500 hands is nothing, just wirte in down as variance and keep on playing.
Although, learning when to laydown and when to 3-bet AQ will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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pokerlearner
Old 04-22-2005, 04:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I have posted AQ hands before and got quite good feedback from this forum. but i am still having doubts about the general approach in playing these hands.

I play 0.5-1$ tables and usually play at tables where at least 5-6 people see the flop (including blinds)

Here is what i have been doing most of the time.

Preflop:

Raise or 3bet preflop (based on how many raises before me). I have only limped once and paid dearly for it. Usually dont cap it, because With bet and raise most of the times i could be dominated (AK, AA, KK) or against some high pocket pair JJ, 10-10 and he is going to bet it at every round and make me pay dearly if i dont pair up.

Flop:

If early position, I bet and if late position and there is already a bet, i raise (regardless of whether I hit a pair or not with A or Q).

Turn If i still havent paired, I still bet from early position, and if raised fold. If someone just calls, i just check/fold or check call the river based on board.

In turn if i pair my A or Q and that is the highest card on board, then bet or raise (depending on position).

But usually what is happening is i have seen is either people are drawing to runner runner straight, or runner runner flush or the four flush completing a flush (in last case i cant complain because he always had the odds to do what he did).

Also a lot of times I have paired my Aces on flop but the guy made A-rag 2 pair and raised me on turn but i failed to respect that. I start thinking that if he has A-K i will pay him off, but if he has A-J or A-10 or whatever, i will extract money for playing A-rag. Usually he is the one extracting money

some help would be greatly appreciated.
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Fnord
Old 04-22-2005, 10:07 PM #5 (permalink)  
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The two biggested adjustments I've learned with these hands is...

When to laydown AQo to a raise and when to 3-bet it.
When to just check/call, check/fold the flop or just take a free turn on a miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerlearner
Also a lot of times I have paired my Aces on flop but the guy made A-rag 2 pair and raised me on turn but i failed to respect that. I start thinking that if he has A-K i will pay him off, but if he has A-J or A-10 or whatever, i will extract money for playing A-rag. Usually he is the one extracting money
Most of the time you can't profitably lay down TPTK in a limt game, also if their kicker is small enough you'll often have more than 3 outs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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honsheung
Old 04-23-2005, 08:10 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
The two biggested adjustments I've learned with these hands is...

When to laydown AQo to a raise and when to 3-bet it.
When to just check/call, check/fold the flop or just take a free turn on a miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerlearner
Also a lot of times I have paired my Aces on flop but the guy made A-rag 2 pair and raised me on turn but i failed to respect that. I start thinking that if he has A-K i will pay him off, but if he has A-J or A-10 or whatever, i will extract money for playing A-rag. Usually he is the one extracting money
Most of the time you can't profitably lay down TPTK in a limt game, also if their kicker is small enough you'll often have more than 3 outs.
pay attention to a turn raise, as hyper has said, a turn raise usually imly the most made hands, though you have A pair and Q kicker, you can still get beaten. Usually I will call in in turn and chk call in river in this sense.
I won't fold because he may really have A pair with a lower kicker. But I won't raise to 3bet in turn ,either. It's just too risky.
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honsheung
Old 04-23-2005, 08:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
The two biggested adjustments I've learned with these hands is...

When to laydown AQo to a raise and when to 3-bet it.
When to just check/call, check/fold the flop or just take a free turn on a miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerlearner
Also a lot of times I have paired my Aces on flop but the guy made A-rag 2 pair and raised me on turn but i failed to respect that. I start thinking that if he has A-K i will pay him off, but if he has A-J or A-10 or whatever, i will extract money for playing A-rag. Usually he is the one extracting money
Most of the time you can't profitably lay down TPTK in a limt game, also if their kicker is small enough you'll often have more than 3 outs.
When to lay down the AQ when get a reraise, can u tell me ?
Preflop ?
Flop when not pairing up ?
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:28 PM #8 (permalink)  
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unless it's 3bet to you, don't muck AQo preflop.

if you have good position it's often worth a 3bet. but you need to be careful about who raised first, because if they cap it back you're very screwed.

on the flop often you have odds to call, so you're not folding.

on the turn often you still have odds, so you're not folding.

on the river if you still don't hit, you can't call down to beat a bluff because AK outkicks you.

you have 21 hands of AQ, and i doubt you played them all perfectly...perhaps a massive AQ post of all the hands might help you out.
 
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Fnord
Old 04-23-2005, 10:26 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
unless it's 3bet to you, don't muck AQo preflop.
So wrong. AQo is an easy muck to a tight raise. That move has saved me lots of money. I've also been known to laydown TT and sometimes even JJ to a single pre-flop raise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 04-23-2005, 10:32 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Hyper plays more six max, so I can see what hes saying. I muck AQ, 99 TT all the time to a EP mulit-rock, it does save a lot of money in the long run.
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:36 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
So wrong. AQo is an easy muck to a tight raise. That move has saved me lots of money. I've also been known to laydown TT and sometimes even JJ to a single pre-flop raise.
of course with reads you can make these adjustments, but i'm just talkin about the general case here.
 
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ArcticKnight
Old 04-24-2005, 12:16 AM #12 (permalink)  
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There is a good section in Super System 2 regarding AK. I especially like the approach talking about how it is easier to play than AA and KK. Also, using opportunities to disguise the strength pre-flop, and then let go or hammer it hard on later streets, accordingly.

IM0 AQ looks only slightlty weaker than AK, but it seems to play much weaker. With AK, when A or K boards, you have TPTK, but when you are holding AQ, a boarded K is a scare card, and KQ on board is really trouble.

AK and AQ hands can't be considered peers..
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
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honsheung
Old 04-24-2005, 02:54 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
There is a good section in Super System 2 regarding AK. I especially like the approach talking about how it is easier to play than AA and KK. Also, using opportunities to disguise the strength pre-flop, and then let go or hammer it hard on later streets, accordingly.

IM0 AQ looks only slightlty weaker than AK, but it seems to play much weaker. With AK, when A or K boards, you have TPTK, but when you are holding AQ, a boarded K is a scare card, and KQ on board is really trouble.

AK and AQ hands can't be considered peers..
I agree of you ,
if three bets,
Ak I will cap in preflop. AQ I will muck.

if two bets , both of them i will rerasie t 3bets, any objections?
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Fnord
Old 04-24-2005, 03:52 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Lets say you're playing 3/6 online.

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands.html

Pokerroom says AQ has an EV of +.31 and TT has an EV of +.58. I actually found it surprising how low of an EV AQ has on that chart.

That number is for any situation. So when facing a raise in front your EV is certainly lower than that. Hence, that laydown is costing you less than $2 even if it's a mistake. Plenty of room to make a read based call and not feel compelled to have to play your hand.

BTW, my EV for AQ for full table 2/4 and 3/6 is .41BB/hand over 816 hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 04-24-2005, 04:09 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Pokerroom says AQ has an EV of +.31 and TT has an EV of +.58. I actually found it surprising how low of an EV AQ has on that chart.
this chart includes how every player plays a particular hand. the low EV is because of how poorly it is played by a lot of players.
 
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honsheung
Old 04-24-2005, 06:23 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Lets say you're playing 3/6 online.

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands.html

Pokerroom says AQ has an EV of +.31 and TT has an EV of +.58. I actually found it surprising how low of an EV AQ has on that chart.

That number is for any situation. So when facing a raise in front your EV is certainly lower than that. Hence, that laydown is closing you less than $2 even if it's a mistake. Plenty of room to make a read based call and not feel compelled to have to play your hand.

BTW, my EV for AQ for full table 2/4 and 3/6 is .41BB/hand over 816 hands.
I am sorry i don't understand the poker terminology of such words EV.
Can u explain it in an easy way ?
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Fnord
Old 04-24-2005, 06:30 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Expected Value.

If we flip a coin:
Heads: You pay me $60
Tails: I pay you $50
Winner pays the house $1

My EV for this game is +$4.5 per flip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 04-24-2005, 03:46 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Expected Value.

If we flip a coin:
Heads: You pay me $60
Tails: I pay you $50
Winner pays the house $1

My EV for this game is +$4.5 per flip.
or more descriptive...

A pays B $60 if heads
B pays A $50 if tails

EV for A: (0.50)(50) - (0.50)(60) = -5 - 1 = -6
EV for B: (0.50)(60) - (0.50)(50) = 5 - 1 = 4

i dunno how you got 4.5....the rake isn't split by both players is it?
 
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face
Old 04-24-2005, 06:39 PM #19 (permalink)  
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face
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Expected Value.

If we flip a coin:
Heads: You pay me $60
Tails: I pay you $50
Winner pays the house $1

My EV for this game is +$4.5 per flip.
or more descriptive...

A pays B $60 if heads
B pays A $50 if tails

EV for A: (0.50)(50) - (0.50)(60) = -5 - 1 = -6
EV for B: (0.50)(60) - (0.50)(50) = 5 - 1 = 4

i dunno how you got 4.5....the rake isn't split by both players is it?
EV for A: (.5)(49) - (.5)(60) = 24.5 - 30 = -5.5
EV for B: (.5)(59) - (.5)(50) = 29.5 - 25 = 4.5

They don't split, you just have to subtract the rake before you multiply it by how often you have to pay it. The prize when you win is X - 1 (lower EV by .5). The rake is not taken out when you lose, so you don't subtract 1.
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:35 PM #20 (permalink)  
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i remember why i dropped out of statistics now...
 
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ArcticKnight
Old 04-25-2005, 04:44 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Hyper

The girl in your picture is REALLY Hot..

It seems a little creepy with Fnord in his PJ's lurky over her in posts..

LOL
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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honsheung
Old 04-25-2005, 06:22 AM #22 (permalink)  
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thanks for the explanation of EV
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