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pokerlearner
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08-29-2005, 06:29 PM
Post subject: did i play this right without any reads
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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No reads on anyone at the table except its not that loose. 3-4 people calling outside the blinds preflop.
My reasoning was, I was preflop raiser, and UTG+2 saw him being raised by me on the flop. What could he have that he will lead out again on the turn other than two pair (KJ , J8) ?? was I incorrect and I should have raised again on the turn ? or in most of the cases when it happens, the guy who leads out even after raise has 2 pair. right ?
B&M 2-4
Hero has Ad-Kh on the button
UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls,UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls
Flop: Ks-Jh-8h
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls
Turn: Ks-Jh-8h-3s
UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls
Turn: Ks-Jh-8h-3s-5c
UTG+2 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls
UTG+2 shows Ac-Qc
Hero wins the pot
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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I'd raise the turn and possibly the river
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Raising the turn here is good because there are 5 players in and you are last to act. Even though you are often behind here (I'm thinking possibly 88 or JJ or KJs, with JJ probably the least likely with no preflop raise), you are probably ahead at least half the time. If you raise, all four are most likely going to call another bet, and I would say you have some straight and flush draws out against you. All combined, good chance you are drawn out on, but you are getting 4:1 on your bet and you will win this hand more than 20% With a total blank on the river, I think a raise is a value bet here too.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Raise the flop for brain-dead value. Raise the turn for even more trendy-SSH-wait-for-the-turn-on-a-mulit-way-draw-heavy-board (TSSHWFTTMWDHB) value. Flat calling both streets makes me cry.
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booradly07
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 120
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Seems like you have to raise the turn and see what happens. If I had this hand I'd definately have to raise it on the turn to see how the villian reacted. The extra bet it cost you now will earn/save you more down the road once you know what he is capable or not capable of. Depending on how long you thought you were going to play with the guy its definately a good idea to push TPTK here a little bit more to see how weak/tight this guy is. You are possibly putting him on top 2 pair but you know you have TPTK so I'd push to see what he does...but then again AKo is the last hold out for me...I'm still notquite showing profit with it in the last 15,000 hands so I obviously overplay it allot.
Brad
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by booradly07
The extra bet it cost you now will earn/save you more down the road once you know what he is capable or not capable of.
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Is that seriously what you think when you're raising the field with what is very often the best hand? I can understand "Well, gosh I'm getting the best of it, but there are probably a whole lot of collective outs against me. Maybe I only win this 40% of the time likely getting 1:4 on my money in a big pot." That's along way from "the extra bet it cost you now" for some read against a guy likely giving his money away against any sound strategy. It's a gambling game, get your money in there with the best of it more often than not and shout GIVE ME A DEUCE BABY!!!!
This hand is so not about reads unless you have an absurdly strong one on someone.
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Raise the turn FOR SURE. What Fnord said.
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pokerlearner
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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I LOVE you Fnord. You da man.
P.S. Pokerlearner >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOT GAY.   
This guy was betting on EVERY damn flop. 2 overcards, bottom pair, trip board whatever. Too bad I didnt see him play this way before I got my hand.
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booradly07
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 120
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by booradly07
The extra bet it cost you now will earn/save you more down the road once you know what he is capable or not capable of.
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Is that seriously what you think when you're raising the field with what is very often the best hand? I can understand "Well, gosh I'm getting the best of it, but there are probably a whole lot of collective outs against me. Maybe I only win this 40% of the time likely getting 1:4 on my money in a big pot." That's along way from "the extra bet it cost you now" for some read against a guy likely giving his money away against any sound strategy. It's a gambling game, get your money in there with the best of it more often than not and shout GIVE ME A DEUCE BABY!!!!
This hand is so not about reads unless you have an absurdly strong one on someone. |
All I can say is, you are so right. Thanks for bringing out the flawed logic... even though we both arrived at the same conclusion I guess its not good to get there using bad logic. So, its not about trying to put him on KJ exactly. So that is not really what I am saying. I know he probably has the best of it and should raise for two reasons...value and IF possible to knock out drawing hands or at least give them bad odds. My only point (and I should have just said it) was that you certainly won't get much information just calling down with TPTK. You have to raise unless given a tangible reason to think you are beat. He could easily have had KQ or KJ and still came out with a bet on the turn. In this case he had shit. If the OP were to raise the turn and UTG+2 had 3-bet it then he would have been able to justify just calling him down from there....I think.
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