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Did I lose significantly more than I should have?

  
 
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scgolfer
Old 08-18-2004, 02:15 PM     Post subject: Did I lose significantly more than I should have? #1 (permalink)  
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Should I have folded the river after raise? I kinda got caught by the KQ guy. I wanted to see showdown for 1 or 2 bets not capped. Hoping they both had kings.
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GAME #568332884 - $3/$6 TEXAS HOLD'EM - 2004/08/17-22:32:46 (CST)
Table "Sacorro" (real money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: stinkeruk ($212.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Hey Moe! ($32.00 in chips)
Seat 3: tinter ($150.00 in chips)
Seat 4: OlthoiClaw ($290.00 in chips)
Seat 5: turd_f ($129.00 in chips)
Seat 6: bennyben ($58.00 in chips)
Seat 7: muatim ($60.50 in chips)
Seat 8: scgolfer ($322.00 in chips)
Seat 9: m0nk33 ($140.00 in chips)
Seat 10: bigjjeffro ($91.00 in chips)
turd_f : Post Small Blind ($1)
bennyben: Post Big Blind ($3)
tinter : Post ($3)
Dealing...
Dealt to scgolfer [ Ac ]
Dealt to scgolfer [ Ah ]
muatim : Call ($3)
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
m0nk33 : Fold
bigjjeffro: Fold
stinkeruk: Fold
Hey Moe!: Fold
tinter : Call ($3)
OlthoiClaw: Fold
turd_f : Fold
bennyben: Call ($3)
muatim : Call ($3)
*** FLOP *** : [ Ks 8s 8h ]
bennyben: Check
muatim : Bet ($3)
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
tinter : Call ($6)
bennyben: Call ($6)
muatim : Raise ($6)
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
tinter : Call ($6)
bennyben: Call ($6)
muatim : Call ($3)
*** TURN *** : [ Ks 8s 8h ] [ 4c ]
tinter said, "77777777777777777777"
bennyben: Check
muatim : Check
tinter said, "come on 77"
scgolfer: Bet ($6)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Call ($12)
muatim : Call ($12)
scgolfer: Call ($6)
*** RIVER *** : [ Ks 8s 8h 4c ] [ 8c ]
bennyben: Bet ($6)
muatim : Fold
scgolfer: Call ($6)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Raise ($12)
scgolfer: Call ($12)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Call ($6)
tinter said, "send it"
scgolfer: Call ($6)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $190 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Ks 8s 8h 4c 8c ]
stinkeruk didn't bet (folded)
Hey Moe! didn't bet (folded)
tinter bet $54, collected $190, net +$136 (showed hand) [ 8d 7d ] (four of a kind, eights)
OlthoiClaw didn't bet (folded)
turd_f lost $1 (folded)
bennyben lost $54 (showed hand) [ Qd Kh ] (a full house, eights full of kings)
muatim lost $30 (folded)
scgolfer lost $54 (showed hand) [ Ac Ah ] (a full house, eights full of aces)
m0nk33 didn't bet (folded)
bigjjeffro didn't bet (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------
Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!
 
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Bvest65
Old 08-18-2004, 02:52 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Wow....that's definitely an action hand

I'd have to lay those bullets down after the flop when I'm getting raised/called by that many people. I'm a pretty tight player, so drawing to the hand still wouldn't be too fashionable to me. I know if you hit your ace, and he didn't get his other 8, then it would've been justified. But I look at it as if he's holding trip 8s, I have a very very slight chance to take the pot down.

I guess what I'm rambling about is that I would've had to lay down that hand given the situation, cut your losses and move on. There's no reason to give a guy a huge chunk of cash because your drawing to very few outs.

Tough beat


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Toasty
Old 08-18-2004, 03:17 PM #3 (permalink)  
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It depends on your player reads, I don't mind the way you played this and would have probably took the same line myself.

O but i would have check raised the flop!
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
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mike4066
Old 08-18-2004, 03:27 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Thats one HELL of a 3/6 hand.. wow.
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Humphrind
Old 08-18-2004, 03:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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From tinter's talk (depending on how he has already played) I would have guessed he had 65 and looking for his gutshot straight. But then I started saying that he sure put a lot of money into that gutshot. Maybe he does have the 8. But his chatting made me think he was either a maniac who was chasing after a gutshot straight, or giving false tells and had a K or maybe a pocket pair.

But your question. Should you have layed this down at the river? No. You should have done exactly what you did. There is only 1 card that can beat you, unfortunatly, he happened to have that card. Tough break. Sorry.
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
 
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Fnord
Old 08-18-2004, 05:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I *might* fold here....

bennyben: Bet ($6)
muatim : Fold
scgolfer: Call ($6)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Raise ($12)

Given the size of the pot, can't feel bad about calling this all the way down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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scgolfer
Old 08-18-2004, 05:32 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I really had a feeling from the turn on that tinter had another 8, but when the river came down, I didnt think so anymore, but didnt really want to call another two bets. I got caught by the other guy who probably and rightly so thought at worst he was getting a split pot and that someone didnt have a king. Funny thing was the guy who came in third had just said it was "very amateurish" to cap river without the nuts.
Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!
 
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Fnord
Old 08-18-2004, 05:39 PM #8 (permalink)  
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You only have to be good 10%+ of the time to call down the river cap...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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VeraN
Old 08-28-2004, 02:04 AM #9 (permalink)  
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It was a pot where you were going to lose a lot of money no matter what. The moment the last 8 came out you must have had a good feeling you had the best hand. However I would have folded on the river mainly because of:

bennyben: Bet ($6)
muatim : Fold
scgolfer: Call ($6)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Raise ($12)
scgolfer: Call ($12)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Call ($6)
tinter said, "send it"
scgolfer: Call ($6)

Your first call was correct but once tinter reraised I would have folded. I guess you could call hoping that you still had the best hand to win a huge pot since you were already pot commited, but I think that was more than good enough information that tinter had the 8 since all he was doing the whole time was jamming the pot.
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Fnord
Old 08-28-2004, 02:08 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Folding the river would be horrible. No way you put anyone on the case 8.

If you make these folds regularly, there is a seat waiting for you at my table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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VeraN
Old 08-28-2004, 04:11 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Ok examine the river bets again:

bennyben: Bet ($6)
muatim : Fold
scgolfer: Call ($6)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Raise ($12)
scgolfer: Call ($12)
tinter : Raise ($12)
bennyben: Call ($6)
tinter said, "send it"
scgolfer: Call ($6)

The moment scgolfer called ($12) and tinter reraised the last ($12) it's almost a definate that he was beat by now.

With 4 people up this point (muatim folded, maybe was drawing for the flush and missed) Benny had the king, Scgolfer has aces, but do you really think that with 2 other people in the pot (benny, tinter) that the aces were gonna hold? Just from the bets on the river, benny and tinter jamming. Why would tinter ram and jam?

What I'm trying to say is that folding on the river isn't a bad idea because by now you should know that something is fishy. The fact that tinter and benny are reraising each other non stop with 3 8's on the board. Any decent player who has a king would not ram and jam at this point because they know it's gonna be a split pot.

At this point if you don't put tinter on 8's at least put him on pocket kings, or pocket 4's giving him a house. There's absolutely no reason to ram and jam with any other hand against benny.

Finally the best thing you could assume tinter has is pocket aces as well for a split. So after the last couple of series of reraises on the river, even after you have commited all that money, I don't think the last call was correct.
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Fnord
Old 08-28-2004, 04:33 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeraN
What I'm trying to say is that folding on the river isn't a bad idea because by now you should know that something is fishy. The fact that tinter and benny are reraising each other non stop with 3 8's on the board. Any decent player who has a king would not ram and jam at this point because they know it's gonna be a split pot.
Two BAD assumptions.

1) You're dealing wth decent players, unless you have a strong read otherwise.

2) That a King (no worries about kickers) wouldn't ram in jam hopeing an idiot pays off everyone with a King or he can get a weak player to fold a King.

Without a strong read you MUST call once you're past the turn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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VeraN
Old 08-28-2004, 04:57 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Two BAD assumptions.

1) You're dealing wth decent players, unless you have a strong read otherwise.
Just check the last river bets you don't need a read on what the other two players have. It's clear that one of them has a king, but tinter who has been reraising benny is the problem. Just from the bets you should have a good idea that your hand is beat, so what could he possibly have? Either pocket kings, 4's, or an 8. You know he doesn't have a king. The best possible hand he could have is pocket aces so scgolfer can get a split.

The moment the 8 came on the river scgolfer didn't think anybody had an 8 and that was a correct assumption but the last 2 reraises should have been a clear hint that his hand was beat by then.

Quote:
2) That a King (no worries about kickers) wouldn't ram in jam hopping an idiot pays off everyone with a King or he can get a weak player to fold a King.
I don't really understand what you're saying here but I assume you are saying that tinter is trying to bluff the pot by ramming and jamming hoping that the other player has a king with a low kicker and that he doesn't understand the rules so he would fold thinking even though he has a full house, his kicker is low.

I don't think this is highly likely, this is 3-6 we're talking about. There are lots of fish at these levels but it's not .50-1, not 1-2, and not 2-4. Also considering the fact that benny has been jamming with tinter, he should know that his full house is good, and doesn't require any kicker whatsoever.
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Fnord
Old 08-28-2004, 05:16 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeraN
I don't really understand what you're saying here but I assume you are saying that tinter is trying to bluff the pot by ramming and jamming hoping that the other player has a king with a low kicker and that he doesn't understand the rules so he would fold thinking even though he has a full house, his kicker is low.
Given that you're agruing for laying down Aces here, it's not a stretch a weak player lays down 8s full of Kings. As I said, no way you lay down Aces here (after the turn) to a guy that just posted. If he has an 8, good for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeraN
I don't think this is highly likely, this is 3-6 we're talking about. There are lots of fish at these levels but it's not .50-1, not 1-2, and not 2-4. Also considering the fact that benny has been jamming with tinter, he should know that his full house is good, and doesn't require any kicker whatsoever.
2/4 and 3/6 online are both a mixed bag of players, don't even tell me that the level of play is such a huge difference to influence this call. Also, consider that extreme TAgs are more likely at 3/6 and up.

It's easy to say laydown here and look like a genius while I look like a boarderline nut when you have the results in front of you. This is why the best hand debates are without results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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michael1123
Old 08-28-2004, 06:12 AM #15 (permalink)  
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There's no way you can lay this down in limit, with all that's in the pot.

Think about it, Veran. You're talking about folding the second best possible hand in a $54 pot to a raise of $6, since you're saying he should know to fold after the last reraise. Even if you're 80% sure he has quad 8s, you have odds to call. What he shouldn't do is reraise, and he didn't.

In NL, its possible, if you know a player won't reraise huge without an absolute monster, and he shoves all in at the river, when you already had him on trip 8s before the river. Even then, its a very hard laydown.
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