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Did I get greedy?

  
 
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Shotfrog
Old 02-16-2005, 01:43 PM     Post subject: Did I get greedy? #1 (permalink)  

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I'm a new player, and as you can see I'm starting off with .02/.04 limit tables at PS. I'm playing super tight -- according to PokerStars' stats, I'm folding pre-flop 75% of the time -- and I'm watching these maniacs call any and everything all the way down to the river. But even when I get good hands, I tend to lose because, of the other six people playing, someone almost always catches the miracle (I'm aware that about 300 career hands does not a trend make). Anyway, after folding and folding and folding, and losing a couple pots I had bet up pretty high, the following happened.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, A. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q, Q, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4 (3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 9 (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 5c 7d (two pair, queens and fives).
Hero has Qc Ac (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.


I'm pretty sure I played that correctly, or at least mostly correctly. (Maybe I should have raised after the flop? I certainly welcome any input.) But more important is what happened on the very next hand, when I thought things were going my way:

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, K. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 5, A, 4 (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero caps, CO calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16.25 BB) T (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (22.25 BB) J (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 25.25 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Kh Qc (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ah Kc (one pair, aces).
CO has As 8d (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 25.25 BB.


Should I have folded when that jack came up? What's the right play here?
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Fnord
Old 02-16-2005, 01:50 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Both hands look g00t to me.
 
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Shotfrog
Old 02-16-2005, 01:55 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Let me ask you, since I have no perspective on this yet: Is it normal to just get killed by people playing things like 33 and 42s all night long?
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Sed
Old 02-16-2005, 02:15 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Yep it'll happen from time to time. I got destroyed last night by everything from 42o to Q2s it was disgusting...

Hand 2) good job recognizing that BB caught something on the river when he woke up and bet out. Slowing down saved you some bets.

- sed
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Tripps7
Old 02-16-2005, 02:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Just my opinion here and I would like to hear what others think as I am only at about 5k hands (since I got serious about learning). I am winning consistently so I'd like to think I am learning...

Hand 1:

I think you played it fine. Although, I am not one to slowplay often on the flop with a flush draw on the board. Once in a while on a whim I might just call depending on the player. Had the five been a different suit, I definetely hide my strength until the turn.

Hand 2:

My first reaction is you did fine. But it depends on what kind of read you had on CO. Looking at the results and his betting for this hand he seems to be pretty aggressive with marginal hands. The cap on the flop was good, but the raise by CO on the river would scare me a little. I would be thinking set or maybe two pair (depending on my read). At this point I would check and call as you did. NO WAY you fold on the river. I wouldn't put this guy on the straight because of his aggressiveness on the flop and turn. Only the real crazies will raise on 2 streets without top pair or a made hand. Also the Pot is way too big to fold, I don't know the exact number or method to calculate this, but you only have to be right about 5% of the time to break even.

Again I would like to hear what some of the more experienced players think...
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Shotfrog
Old 02-16-2005, 03:23 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
Hand 2:

My first reaction is you did fine. But it depends on what kind of read you had on CO. Looking at the results and his betting for this hand he seems to be pretty aggressive with marginal hands. The cap on the flop was good, but the raise by CO on the river would scare me a little. I would be thinking set or maybe two pair (depending on my read). At this point I would check and call as you did. NO WAY you fold on the river. I wouldn't put this guy on the straight because of his aggressiveness on the flop and turn. Only the real crazies will raise on 2 streets without top pair or a made hand. Also the Pot is way too big to fold, I don't know the exact number or method to calculate this, but you only have to be right about 5% of the time to break even.
It wasn't so much a specific read on him, but rather a read on the table. I'd been playing for a couple hours at that point, and it had become clear that everyone was playing any hand with an Ace. My feeling was that I was likely facing one or more players with the same pair and a lower kicker. And as you can see, in the case of CO, I was right.
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Fnord
Old 02-16-2005, 03:31 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotfrog
Let me ask you, since I have no perspective on this yet: Is it normal to just get killed by people playing things like 33 and 42s all night long?
Yes, it happens. More often than not we're killing them with all of the money they put in pre-flop when they miss.
 
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jbmagic
Old 02-16-2005, 04:09 PM #8 (permalink)  

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on hand 2

isnt it better to bet than to check?
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Fnord
Old 02-16-2005, 04:21 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Good point, didn't notice the weird flop check/raise.
 
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Shotfrog
Old 02-16-2005, 04:37 PM #10 (permalink)  

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I think I actually was trying to psych someone out with the check-raise. I had forgotten that deception has no place at such a table.

I am trying to memorize the reasons why I suck at limit hold 'em, by the way...
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ChezJ
Old 02-16-2005, 05:07 PM #11 (permalink)  
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i don't know what the title of your post is referring to. you played both hands pretty well. on the first hand, i would tend to raise my trips because of the flush threat out there, especially on a loose table where you know you will still get cold called by somebody. but without the flush threat, i would also smooth call as you did to lure in those overcalls.

on hand 2, i don't see how you could fold that river once the pot is so huge and it's only one bet. at least you didn't raise him. let the fucking chaser have his pot, he will donate many many more chips to you in the future chasing runner runner straights like that against capped betting.

personally i like the checkraise on the flop because there is only like a 1% risk that you will give a free card when the table is full of idiots who play any unsuited ace-rag or ram their 55's.

regarding the overall experience at microlimits, yes you are going to see morons suck out 2 pairs with 74o over and over again, and even build up huge stacks temporarily as they hit lucky streaks. DO NOT LET THIS INFLUENCE YOUR PLAY. somebody else's short term results have no bearing on your long term expectation. if anything, you need to play even tighter if you think people are going to be raising behind you with crap on every hand you play. when you whiff on the flop, just suck it up and keep waiting. You WILL connect with that board eventually, and when you do, those idiots will pay you off to the river and you will drag a pot so gigantic that it will erase all your frustrations and self-doubts. Patience and discipline, that is the only true path to success at limit HE.

ChezJ
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TylerK
Old 02-16-2005, 09:37 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Sup brohammer?

I think the checkraise is ok on hand 2 depending on reads on the players. If you feel strongly that CO is going to bet, it's a good chance to get more money in the pot before the last card to the flush or straight falls. Of course if CO checks you're kicking yourself.

I will now remove myself from the limit forum. I feel so...dirty.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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Shotfrog
Old 02-16-2005, 09:59 PM #13 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Sup brohammer?

I think the checkraise is ok on hand 2 depending on reads on the players. If you feel strongly that CO is going to bet, it's a good chance to get more money in the pot before the last card to the flush or straight falls. Of course if CO checks you're kicking yourself.

I will now remove myself from the limit forum. I feel so...dirty.
I feel like the check-raise is the Hadoken in Street Fighter. I'm just learning how to play, so I want to use the special move all the time, even though I really ought to master the six types of punches and kicks first. Chances are that guy would have called or raised anything I did, because HE FLOPPED TOP PAIR DOOD.

Seriously, I'm getting the snobbiness down better than anything so far.

Edit: I defer to just about everyone if my elitism is misplaced at any point.
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TylerK
Old 02-17-2005, 07:15 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotfrog
I feel like the check-raise is the Hadoken in Street Fighter.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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Shotfrog
Old 02-17-2005, 01:27 PM #15 (permalink)  

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I applaud your efforts. I actually said "Hadoken!" last night after a successful check-raise, but I think I'm going to the well a little too often.
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ihategnomes
Old 02-17-2005, 02:57 PM #16 (permalink)  
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On hand number 1 why not raise the flop? Is it more profitable with the overcallers? I figured not with the board paired and a 2 to the flush, I would being wanting to eliminate as many players I could / get money in on that flop?
Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
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<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
 
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