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Lance
Old 03-02-2009, 08:35 PM     Post subject: decisions #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

villain 26/19/1.9
Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bet, 2 folds, CO calls

Flop: (6.5 SB) 4, Q, 8 (2 players)
1. CO bets, Hero ?
2. CO checks, Hero bet, CO calls

possible turn: (8.5 SB)
2

1) fold, i missed the flop and the villain showed aggression....
2) plan is to check the turn and call the river UI.
Now consider the river card 2c.....would you call a donk bet after checking the turn and showing weakness ?

Would you play it the same way ?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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Airles™
Old 03-02-2009, 08:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Raise or fold villain's donk bet. Don't call unless you have a good reason for doing so. If he calls, villain is most likely to give you a free look at the turn and river unless he actually has something, in which you can easily muck your hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-02-2009, 09:01 PM #3 (permalink)  
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i hate the 3bet. and, i see it a ton with rags at 50/1. its partially why that limit gives me trouble atm. villain is not near wide enough for you to be far enough ahead of his raising range for you to 3bet such an easily dominated hand like AJ. if it were sooooted, then, maybe, but its offsuited.

you are coin flipping with a possibly dominated hand and cant take too much aggression on a flop you miss.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

19% raising range per your stat read
5,445,126,720 games 0.005 secs 1,089,025,344,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.270% 40.38% 02.89% 2198515536 157598094.00 { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T9s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 56.730% 53.84% 02.89% 2931414996 157598094.00 { AJo }


---

24% raising range considering he may open up a little from CO. 4,315,006,080 games 0.078 secs 55,320,590,769 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.957% 42.67% 03.29% 1821470559 140312413.50 { 66+, A4s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+ }
Hand 1: 54.043% 50.76% 03.29% 2166678486 140312413.50 { AJo }

i just dont like 3betting this wide in limit games.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 03-02-2009, 09:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Chopper: Don't those numbers make AJ an easy 3bet to isolate against this guy? We have a small equity edge AND we very often get heads up (in position) with a 1.5 SB blind money overlay in the pot.

I am kind of a spew monkey postflop in 6max, but I think I raise the flop, check behind on the turn and call a lot of rivers. I could see folding if the river is a 9 or T, given that he could be donk betting with a gutshot (T9/J9/JT) here. That's assuming he isn't aggro enough to bet a worse ace on the end.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Airles™
Old 03-02-2009, 10:24 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Chopper, so you hate the preflop 3bet. And I can understand why you feel this way. But if we're not 3betting, should we just fold? You hate 3betting here but I hate calling even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 03-02-2009, 10:52 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I think you have to 3bet AJ here preflop. You have the button and are ahead of his CO steal range which is probably around 25%. There's lots of Ax and Axsoooted hands you have completely crushed.

As for the flop play and beyond: If he donks into us this is really your main decision point in the hand. What i mean is either you are calling down the whole way or you are folding right here and now. There's no peeling then folding the turn UI if (when) he bets again - that's just a losing play no matter what he's got. Sometimes you can call the flop and turn and fold the river UI but only if you're sure he won't 3 barrel with a worse hand like JT.

With this board the real question is what is he donking with? If it's only made hands you have an easy fold. If it's only gutshots, A high, and bluffs you have an easy call down. That's where the reads come into it. Against an unknown at this level i tend to give donkbets some credit and folding the flop will keep you out of trouble though at higher levels people would never fold AJ on this flop to a donkbet without a read. A lot of them would raise but if villian has a worse hand than AJ I don't see how making him fold helps you when he'd just keep bluffing if you called.

If you bet the flop and he calls, same question: What is he calling with? A lot of guys will call with just about anything here - gutshots, small pp, worse A highs, KJ. If the turn is a blank like 2c bet again and fold to a c/r. There's just no point giving free cards as long as you probably have the best hand. You can then check behind the river UI.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-02-2009, 11:15 PM #7 (permalink)  
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standard 3bet PF Chopper!

1. I will disagree with most here, and will just call the flop donk. Depending on turn, i will raise for a free showdown (representing a monster).
I will take that same line with a monster, so it balances my play.

2. Given villain's AF, i tend to check turn and induce. Call river whatever comes. Against a more passive player, i bet turn (fold to a c/r) and take the free SD on river.
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Chopper
Old 03-03-2009, 12:24 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
Chopper, so you hate the preflop 3bet. And I can understand why you feel this way. But if we're not 3betting, should we just fold? You hate 3betting here but I hate calling even more.
i never said call. and, i'm nitty. i dont like flips with stations (which i know he likely isnt), so i poo-poo this based on vpip/pfr. HU pots are ok, but you dont know that yet. will your blinds fold? mine dont...a lot. (factor of level, imo) this hand SUCKS 3 or 4ways...even with position....especially if your villains habitually call mid/btm pair to the river.

if i play it, i 3bet it. and, i want to know other factors than a stat read to play it. i want to know villain folds to cbets a lot. i want to know he wont handle a 2nd barrel. and, i want tight-ish blinds. standard blinds may be ok since this is being 3bet. and, i also want to be farther ahead of his pfr range than 55%....since the blinds may come.

i never said i was right. i just said i dont like it, personally. i know dog, asd, socal, korn, etc will 3bet this all day. i am also trying to be more like them. so, you may give a little less credence to my advice here, as its biased towards playing stations and "no foldem holdem."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 03-03-2009, 12:36 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont like flips with stations (which i know he likely isnt), so i poo-poo this based on vpip/pfr.
Even if his range were so narrow that it's a flip, it's only a flip pre-flop. We're going to play this hand and the best way to set us up on future streets is to be the aggressor.
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Chopper
Old 03-03-2009, 12:57 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont like flips with stations (which i know he likely isnt), so i poo-poo this based on vpip/pfr.
Even if his range were so narrow that it's a flip, it's only a flip pre-flop. We're going to play this hand and the best way to set us up on future streets is to be the aggressor.
i understand its only a flip pf. but, his range doesnt have to be very narrow. 25% is not that tight/narrow. and, thats a virtual flip. hell, 60/40 is basically a flip. but, those are semantics and not really worth arguing i suppose...so sorry for being the bitch there.

i would love to have a ton of hands crushed, but he is also raising pp's. and, if he's worth a shit, he is 3barreling non-A flops with any pp. so, somewhere, i suppose we will need to raise him, knowing he may have AQ+ or a made hand, just to slow him up. either way, it gets a bit expensive if we dont quickly figure out where we stand against him.

now, i say all this because, again, he is rather unknown. when i have reads, i am in here a lot. and, in the "reg games" this is a very standard 3bet because all y'all's ranges are wider than this. just understand that i had a few reasons why i didnt like this pf with only a stat read. i may 3bet this, or fold this, with just a few hands of history with this guy, too. i just need to see more evidence.

for me, i tend to fold this pre....against a relative unknown or with only a stat read. that was my point.

back to post flop, since thats where the real money is made anyway.

1...i like asd's line, but i like to raise the flop in position with my monsters, so i raise right away here and look for improvement on the turn. however, i am betting any turn anyway on this dry board and taking free sd's ui a lot. if i turn the J, i may check behind to induce a river bluff and open him up a bit more. but, this guy (again w/o a great read) isnt aggro enough for me to think he will bluff the river when i raised his flop cbet.

2...if i bet the flop, i RARELY fail to follow up on the turn. the 2barrel is not much more than a flop cbet in NL. hardly anyone folds to a flop bet in LHE, in my experience, but a ton of them fold if you simply follow through on the next street. god forbid that 8 pairs.

actually, that brings up a question from me..... i love to fire a paired turn card when i showed aggression on the flop. but, here, would he really fold a Q? so, therefore, shouldnt we check behind and call him down on the river? i dont see a lot that we beat calling us if the 8 pairs and we rep it.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-03-2009, 02:05 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i would love to have a ton of hands crushed, but he is also raising pp's. and, if he's worth a shit, he is 3barreling non-A flops with any pp.
Why? unless he caps PF, u have initiative. How can u assume he will 3barrell? Most ppl will play pretty straightforward postflop if they are oop and were 3bet PF. He should give u credit for a hand here, so i rarely see him just barrellin any PP on any ace-less board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
1...i like asd's line, but i like to raise the flop in position with my monsters, so i raise right away here and look for improvement on the turn. however, i am betting any turn anyway on this dry board and taking free sd's ui a lot. if i turn the J, i may check behind to induce a river bluff and open him up a bit more. but, this guy (again w/o a great read) isnt aggro enough for me to think he will bluff the river when i raised his flop cbet.

2...if i bet the flop, i RARELY fail to follow up on the turn. the 2barrel is not much more than a flop cbet in NL. hardly anyone folds to a flop bet in LHE, in my experience, but a ton of them fold if you simply follow through on the next street. god forbid that 8 pairs.
1. We have to figure out what the best line is vs his donk.
why does he donk?

a. as a bluff.
Waiting to raise turn and letting him keep bluffing is better.
b. as a semibluff (gutshots, overs...)
On the turn we will have much more equity and can charge his draw the most (unless he hits, obviously). Raising the flop will let him make better decisions and wont get him to fold.
c. for protection (weak made hands)
Whether he will fold them on flop is debatable. We are behind, tho, and our best shot at getting a fold is raising the turn.
d. for value (better made hands)
This is the tough part. but I see a lot of ppl ready to b/3b with draws on the flop, and they wont on the turn. So we will fold if he 3bets our turn raise, take free sd if the calls and checks.
If we raise flop, he may call or 3bet, and we wont really know what to do (is he playin a draw aggro, does he have it? do we bet turn and risk the c/r?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
actually, that brings up a question from me..... i love to fire a paired turn card when i showed aggression on the flop. but, here, would he really fold a Q? so, therefore, shouldnt we check behind and call him down on the river? i dont see a lot that we beat calling us if the 8 pairs and we rep it.
I think his AF is high enough that inducing is better than 2barrellin and taking FSD
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KoRnholio
Old 03-03-2009, 02:22 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 If the villain was tighter and/or raising from an earlier position, only then would I not contemplate a 3bet preflop here. From the CO even more passive players will be stealing with many hands worse than AJ.

The flop donk does throw a wrench in things, since most of the time the villain will check-call that flop with many of his holdings, and check-raise most of the rest. Still, with a villain that is reasonably aggro I am not convinced we are beat or that far behind often enough to just fold the flop.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 03-03-2009, 02:43 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i understand its only a flip pf. but, his range doesnt have to be very narrow. 25% is not that tight/narrow. and, thats a virtual flip. hell, 60/40 is basically a flip. but, those are semantics and not really worth arguing i suppose...so sorry for being the bitch there.
60/40 isn't basically a flip though, far from it. It's not just semantics. If you're a 60% favorite, your odds are 50% greater than his.

Also, you sure you did that Stove right? The 19% range looks broader than the 24% range.
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Chopper
Old 03-03-2009, 03:15 AM #14 (permalink)  
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asd, thank you for explaining. this helps me get to another level of my game....and i'm sure helps many others that read this discussion.

benny, you are right. i flip-flopped them. so, reverse the 19 and 24.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Lance
Old 03-03-2009, 04:23 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Now consider the turn card is Jh......
He checks, You bet coz you improved and you get checkraise....

What now ?

fold ? call down ? 3-bet here and have free SD ?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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Airles™
Old 03-03-2009, 12:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I can't stand that line. The flop donk bet - c/r the turn "cat and mouse" game drives me nuts. I either 3bet the turn there or fold, but I won't ever call in this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-03-2009, 01:33 PM #17 (permalink)  
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yeah, i think 3bet FSD has merits, but i really dont know without a read

donked flops need reads. I will take notes on people who use them as fast as lightning.

I really dont get the donk flop play since it has no merits at all. It makes baby spaghetti monsters cry! LOL

This is one of the problems of the flop raise line vs turn raise... he may still be semibluffin, he may have T9, QJ.... who knows? And our decisions get more complicated by the minute.
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Chopper
Old 03-03-2009, 01:36 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
I can't stand that line. The flop donk bet - c/r the turn "cat and mouse" game drives me nuts. I either 3bet the turn there or fold, but I won't ever call in this case.
that line is so much fun when you cbet an aggro oop and catch on the turn! it will often inspire some fabulous chat. i still say c/r, c/r is the most fun, though. but, it takes a super special set of circumstances to pull that one off.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-03-2009, 04:16 PM #19 (permalink)  
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^ LOL

Yeah been there. You get the aggro-donk label real quick, which is fine with me. All the more money I gain with my monsters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-03-2009, 04:28 PM #20 (permalink)  
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i think i nailed Dog with one in a reg game. he threw WTF in the chat pretty quick.

i think most agree i am "tricky" only because i do some really stupid shit. not because i'm good or anything.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 03-03-2009, 05:48 PM #21 (permalink)  
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I don't mind the pre-flop 3-bet at all. This guy raises a lot of hands pre-flop per the HUD stats and Hero is both ahead of his range and has position on him.

But now the flop comes and we miss the flop, and Villain bets. What is Villain telling us. I understand he's somewhat aggressive, but specifically, have we seen him c-bet his pre-flop raises with air in the past? Or does he c-bet when he has some sort of a made hand? Remember, based on his 19 percent pre-flop raising range hypothesized by Chopper, he's ahead of us with 66-AA, AQ, A8, A4s, KQ, K8s, QJ-QT, Q9s-Q8s, and J8s. And several of those hands leave us drawing almost dead. I want some assurances that he's going to be c-betting with lots of the missed hands in his raising range before I go off and assume that we should stay in this hand.

But if he is a habitual c-better, than I might raise the flop, both to try to represent a good hand and try to steal it and also because this will give us more of an idea of whether this flop hit his range. Unless we catch cards, however, I do not think you want to go much deeper into the hand than this with a hand that cannot beat anything other than a bluff.
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