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dsaxton
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08-04-2007, 04:12 PM
Post subject: Dealing with the donkbet.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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How do you guys deal with players that frequently lead into you out of position after you've raised preflop? I know this depends on the particular player's tendencies, so what are some good lines to take against various types of players who donkbet?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I pretty much have a wholesale "raise all flop donks with any piece including draws >= 6 outs" and go from there. Freecard / cheap showdown usually.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
I pretty much have a wholesale "raise all flop donks with any piece including draws >= 6 outs" and go from there. Freecard / cheap showdown usually.
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If you've missed the flop? For example, say you open-raise A-7o from the cutoff, and the BB calls. The flop comes 9, 3, 2, and the BB donks. If he is the (rare) type of player that only donks with top pair, then the correct play is to fold, but how do you play against different types of players? If there is a small chance he is bluffing / semi-bluffing, do we raise and bet the turn, intending to check behind unimproved on the river? Do we raise and check the turn to hedge against the possibility of being beat, then fold to a river bet? I feel that these are some of the more difficult spots to play in short-handed limit because they are so awkward. Sometimes I end up just calling my opponent down with ace high, but even then I feel like I'm just gambling on my opponent bluffing (which is probably 50/50 at best).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Stellar Wind suggested that the line here is to pretty much call in the dark unless the board makes your hand hopeless.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Stellar Wind suggested that the line here is to pretty much call in the dark unless the board makes your hand hopeless.
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Who is Stellar Wind? What types of hands does he recommend calling down with? At what point does he recommend raising instead of calling?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Who is Stellar Wind?
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2+2 forum. An absurdly smart guy. Do a search.
Just to be clear he only advocates this for guys who are donking the flop just about every time. Your aim is to take away most of his folding equity by calling the flop over 90% of the time. Then force him to either double barrel every time or define his hand on the turn.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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he';s a flop bully. call him down with A high. raise any pair. raise any good hand on the turn or river. Otherwise let him think he's owns you.
DD
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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One line I used to use with ace high against players that do this as a bluff or with weak hands was to call the flop, raise the turn and check behind unimproved on the river. Basically a play a "free showdown" (even thought I hate that term and think it's inaccurate) play.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Yeah i guess it depends a lot on how your opponent behaves on the turn and river. If he only autodonks the flop every time where he is giving you no information other than 'i have two cards good enough to call a preflop raise with', which you already knew. Assuming he called you preflop from the BB, you're getting 5:1 on a call so obviously you have to be prepared to call with very little, maybe even K high, depending on the texture of the board and his preflop calling range.
If he donkamatically bets every street until you raise or fold he is just offering you his money. I say call/raise/fold depending on the pot odds and how your hand compares to his preflop-calling range. Typically, you'll be getting 5:1 on a flop bet, 3:1 on a turn bet and 5:1 on a river bet, so the turn is where you have to show at least a little caution. If you hit a strong hand, never raise the flop (except maybe with a strong draw to try for a free card). Also, raise the turn less than usual (maybe with your marginal hands like A high to try to get him to fold or gain information) because you want him to keep betting. If you're very strong you might even wait until the river to raise.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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