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crying calls part II

  
 
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LawDude
Old 04-08-2009, 06:19 PM     Post subject: crying calls part II #1 (permalink)  
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Well, I couldn't bring myself to call this one, and I should have from a results-oriented standpoint, although to be fair everyone at the table talked about this hand for another 5 minutes and actually agreed I made the right decision. It still hurt though.

I have 9s6s in the small blind. 6 players limp. I complete, BB checks.

Flop is Ks8h7h
I bet. 4 players call.
Turn is 5h
I bet. folds to MP, a tight-aggressive player, who raises. CO, a total nit who only played 4 or 5 hands over the course of 3 hours, calls. Folds to me, I call.
River is 10d
I check, expecting to make a crying call of MP's bet, as I suspect he either has a set, a straight, or a flush, and I have equity against that range.
MP bets.
CO raises-- the only raise he makes all night.
I call for time. Replay the hand in my mind for about a minute and a half.
Finally, I decide there's nothing that CO possibly has other than a flush, and certainly one of them has it, and I fold.
MP calls and turns over a set of 8's.

CO, proudly and loudly, announces "flush", turns over KdQd. 3 seconds later, he looks and says, "oh no, I thought they were hearts!". (It sounded honest, but who knows, he could have been trying to cover up a bad bluff or angleshoot.)

At that point I blurt out "oh my god, I folded my straight to that!". Guy who had the set says "thank you" to the guy with the KQ. (Again, I suppose this could have been collusion, but it looked like an honest mistake as far as I could tell.)

So here's the question. Tight aggressive player has raised the turn when the third diamond came out. He bets the river. Total nit RAISES the river (and indeed, as it turned out, thought he had a flush). Should I have called with my straight? Did I blow this one?
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Chopper
Old 04-08-2009, 09:49 PM #2 (permalink)  
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no. calling two cold, i can find a fold there. 7.5:1 and facing two cold into a player that has not raised all night and also cold called the flush card? yeah, i fold there. only one bet back to me, and i obv snap call.

i am pissed he cant read a board, or his hand, but i still feel i made the right decision for the way the hand played out.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Chopper
Old 04-16-2009, 04:45 PM #3 (permalink)  
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heres one in lieu of our topic..

i usually play my sets fast no matter the textures, and this is why. villain is a bit passive and lately my reads have all been spot on in these spots, but i have been paying them off anyway. i cant see this being anything other than a flush...perhaps a 5X hand. but, my set is beat and i have odds to pay off, except for one thing.....i dont think this guy is aggressive enough to bluff like this. anyone disagree?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4, 4
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (6.5 SB) Q, 6, 4 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (3.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB bets, 1 fold, Hero raises, BB calls

River: (7.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds

Total pot: $9.25 (9.25 BB) | Rake: $0.40
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 04-16-2009, 07:18 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
heres one in lieu of our topic..

i usually play my sets fast no matter the textures, and this is why. villain is a bit passive and lately my reads have all been spot on in these spots, but i have been paying them off anyway. i cant see this being anything other than a flush...perhaps a 5X hand. but, my set is beat and i have odds to pay off, except for one thing.....i dont think this guy is aggressive enough to bluff like this. anyone disagree?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4, 4
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (6.5 SB) Q, 6, 4 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (3.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB bets, 1 fold, Hero raises, BB calls

River: (7.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds

Total pot: $9.25 (9.25 BB) | Rake: $0.40
I think the fact that you have 4 cards to the straight on the board makes a fold a lot better play than it would be with just the 3 cards to the flush. The check on the flop suggests that he didn't have anything yet, which means the turn card helped him. The lack of the re-raise indicates that he still doesn't have a made hand. The raise on the river means he made his straight or his flush.

So it's probably a crying fold unless you have a read that this guy might be willing to do this with a hand that you beat.

And yes, bet the flop (although I am sometimes guilty of this as well). Poker players seem to think that it is their constitutional right to get a huge payoff everytime they hit a set, but you know what, if you bet your set and everyone folds, it's not the end of the world. You still win money, and nobody gets the chance to suck out on you.

Slightly different situation, but yesterday at the card club, I had J6 in the big blind and the flop came up JJ9. Small blind bet, and I raised. Everyone folded and I took down the pot as small blind showed me his 9.

Yeah, I didn't win very much, but you know what, I don't want some player with a straight draw catching an 8 or a Queen or something and sucking out on my trips.
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Chopper
Old 04-17-2009, 01:18 PM #5 (permalink)  
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big difference compared to a JJ2 flop, though.

last night, i played with my boyz, and picked up A9. i limp, and it goes 6 ways....ugh. (but, i knew that. these guys are complete stations. and with 3 callers in front, and our blind structure, i also knew if i raised it up to 20 (blinds were 1/2), i still get 2 callers and AK wont ever shove over me.) so, i felt like i needed to hit a decent hand...even an A is worth taking to showdown here by playing it WA/WB and hoping to avoid the suckout after thinning on the flop.

however, i flop trip 9's. 994. i check. the CO bets 4 into at least 12!! two players call, and i only call since it was a rainbow flop. turn was a J. i check, CO fires 4 more!!! one guy drops, another calls, and since a second spade hits, i.........minraise to 8....lol. donkey play for sure.

(to give you a bit more depth as to the players i play, 33 thought HE was behind A9. he said, "well, you are the favorite here, so looks like we will have another couple hands.") i just laughed and said, "yep, youre the math guy."

the spade misses the river and i feel CO will check this time, so i lead 8 just to milk it a bit more. the guy who caught the J decides to go AI...lol. we all call, i flip my trips, CO flips the worst played QQ hand evar, and the pusher shows JX for the colossal spew.

i didnt play that hand ideally by any stretch. but, i also knew EXACTLY who i was up against. lately, i have been raising the shit out of everything and raising it big. i have also been shoving under 10 bb's. i have been getting paid off, but havent lasted too deep. i decided to shake it up a bit and wait for a little more solid cards last night.

this was the only pot i won. i check/folded my way to HU play after starting with 10 players. the trip 9 hand was the 2nd hand of the night, too. first hand of HU play, and i have a respectable player on my left (part of the reason i wasnt being too crazy), i pick up A9 again. i have 32 chips left and he has over 150 (because the hand before he wiped out 3rd and 4th place with one shot....66 held up over a bluffing/spewing whiffed flush draw and AX...lol) he drew 33, put me AI, and i didnt catch....oh well.

to further tip off the types of players i am playing, the 33 guy was the better of the rest of them...by far. and, he looked at my A9 against his 33 and said, "well, looks like we will be going some more. youre a big favorite here." i lol'd and said, "yup. youre the math guy."

good times.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 04-17-2009, 03:54 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
big difference compared to a JJ2 flop, though.

last night, i played with my boyz, and picked up A9. i limp, and it goes 6 ways....ugh. (but, i knew that. these guys are complete stations. and with 3 callers in front, and our blind structure, i also knew if i raised it up to 20 (blinds were 1/2), i still get 2 callers and AK wont ever shove over me.) so, i felt like i needed to hit a decent hand...even an A is worth taking to showdown here by playing it WA/WB and hoping to avoid the suckout after thinning on the flop.

however, i flop trip 9's. 994. i check. the CO bets 4 into at least 12!! two players call, and i only call since it was a rainbow flop. turn was a J. i check, CO fires 4 more!!! one guy drops, another calls, and since a second spade hits, i.........minraise to 8....lol. donkey play for sure.

(to give you a bit more depth as to the players i play, 33 thought HE was behind A9. he said, "well, you are the favorite here, so looks like we will have another couple hands.") i just laughed and said, "yep, youre the math guy."

the spade misses the river and i feel CO will check this time, so i lead 8 just to milk it a bit more. the guy who caught the J decides to go AI...lol. we all call, i flip my trips, CO flips the worst played QQ hand evar, and the pusher shows JX for the colossal spew.

i didnt play that hand ideally by any stretch. but, i also knew EXACTLY who i was up against. lately, i have been raising the shit out of everything and raising it big. i have also been shoving under 10 bb's. i have been getting paid off, but havent lasted too deep. i decided to shake it up a bit and wait for a little more solid cards last night.

this was the only pot i won. i check/folded my way to HU play after starting with 10 players. the trip 9 hand was the 2nd hand of the night, too. first hand of HU play, and i have a respectable player on my left (part of the reason i wasnt being too crazy), i pick up A9 again. i have 32 chips left and he has over 150 (because the hand before he wiped out 3rd and 4th place with one shot....66 held up over a bluffing/spewing whiffed flush draw and AX...lol) he drew 33, put me AI, and i didnt catch....oh well.

to further tip off the types of players i am playing, the 33 guy was the better of the rest of them...by far. and, he looked at my A9 against his 33 and said, "well, looks like we will be going some more. youre a big favorite here." i lol'd and said, "yup. youre the math guy."

good times.
I am not against slowplay-- and you are right about what I would do if it had been JJ2 rainbow. But I want to be way ahead and certain that I will get more chips into the pot that way than by just betting straight ahead. And I certainly don't want to slowplay when players are drawing out on me.

That said, in the games I play, there is definitely way too much slowplay. I even get into situations where I am heads up against someone who has me massively beat and drawing close to dead (say he's got a straight and all I have is a pair on the flop), and he sits there and puts nothing in the pot all the way to the river, and when he turns over his hand, I am thinking (but not saying) "you know, I might have called you").
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Chopper
Old 04-17-2009, 05:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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funny you mention about the "overslowplaying" villains.

just last night i heard TWO players talking on the side. one was saying that so many players like to bluff too much, so his answer is to slowplay big hands and let them bluff. the other says, "yeah, i love to slowplay, too. so many people like to chase the flush that the only way i get paid off is to let them try and hit it."

i just went...
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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dranger7070
Old 05-16-2009, 08:08 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
funny you mention about the "overslowplaying" villains.

just last night i heard TWO players talking on the side. one was saying that so many players like to bluff too much, so his answer is to slowplay big hands and let them bluff. the other says, "yeah, i love to slowplay, too. so many people like to chase the flush that the only way i get paid off is to let them try and hit it."

i just went...
Lol, i swear I played with this guy tonight at the casino. First time I've played 3/6 since taking poker seriously about 6 months ago, and I'm still an extreme donk to LHE.

I pick up in the BB.
Folds to MP2 who limps. CO limps, BTN limps. SB folds. I check.

Flop comes
I lead (I figured semibluffing was the right play, yes?)
MP2 thinks, then calls. CO folds, BTN folds.

Turn
I though about barreling, but decided to see if he was passive enough to let it check through, he was.

River
This isn't exactly the BEST card in the deck, as I'm slightly worried about a higher flush, but I'm not gonna check and let him check behind with a terribly played Ax or some 77+ hand or something. So I bet out, he thinks for a few seconds then just calls.

Shows lmao. Thank you for letting me hit.

Question though, after this hand (it was like the 2nd orbit when this hand went on), I noticed this guy chronically slowplaying until the river where he would finally bet. Put this hand later on in the session, do I bet flop, check turn, go for a c/r on river? Or am I still just better off betting out?
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Chopper
Old 05-16-2009, 01:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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WOW....frikkin WOW! these idiots never cease to amaze me.

i likely c/r the flop....depending on WHERE the bet comes from. if i will likely be burning players out, i just call along. if the guy to my immediate left fires, and the others call, i raise all day long to get 2 bb's in when i am an effective odds favorite to win.

dont worry so much about overflushes. yeah, they suck, but live, i suspect you dont need to worry about it until you get 3bet. players will chase 85s off, too, but they wont 3bet it. however, they will also chase the 4th spade (not the case here) when the flush completes on the turn.....with as weak as a 6hi four flush.

i am not going ballistic with this hand (even later in the session) when the A pairs, though, because too many players chase Arag and just boated on you. but, they will likely slow play that, too. its win/win for you because you will win some pots with worse in the hand, but wont get charged much when you are behind.

they just dont realize how much they cost themselves with this crap......and, for that, i buy the booze.

good hand, dranger. i will need to toss you a couple of my ubermicro NL hands soon. i've been playing some at cake just to screw with those guys. i cant find it, but read this summary of one over there...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...it-t85297.html
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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dranger7070
Old 05-16-2009, 07:21 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Haha, thanks chopper. Yea, I was pretty amazed that he had that strong of a hand and just check/called it down, like wtf. I watched him after that though, and he was a REALLY weak/tight player. He would NEVER raise a hand PF or postflop, and the only time he would bet anything is on the river with the near nuts, but he was making some pretty good money lol, just so sick.

I've been playing NL for about 6 months now, just getting my feet wet a LHE. My postflop play is terribad at NL, and I know in LHE there are spots where you should/have to call down light postflop, and when you can/should make thin v-bets. I find myself playing decent PF and on the flop, but my turn and river play just kill my winrate, even though I beat the games I play for a decent clip, it could be MUCH more if I didn't play so weak/tight on the turn and river.

Hopefully LHE helps me out with this, + I can make some extra live $$$ pwning the feesh at this 3/6 live game. Ugh its so sick how soft it is lol. <3 it. Thanks for the link, ill look it over when im not so zombied out (24 hours no sleep so far, ugh.)
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Chopper
Old 05-16-2009, 08:00 PM #11 (permalink)  
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1) play 4/8 if you can. it eases the rake you will pay, and simultaneously increases your winrate since the fish play either game if there are waiting lines at the casino.

2) keep coming over here. we will convert you yet.

i bounce back and forth between LHE and NL some. but, i swore off NL a year ago because i cant stand waiting for set-over-set to get the other nit to felt his hand. or AA v KK. or rivered flushes. bla bla.

seems like 13/10 isnt too tight in NL anymore....not even at the lower stakes. and, that just bores the shit out of me. i used to aim for 20/10, but run more like 18/12 nowadays....and thats mind-numbingly boring to me to do for long.

the games have change....for the worse....and arent coming back in the current state, imo. i used to know guys powering through 10NL, 25NL, 50NL and arriving at 100NL in a few months. these days, i know more guys still stuck at 10NL than i know actually moving up. if one does move up, he didnt make much money at the lower levels, is running on a thin br, and it still took a year and a half or more.

i dont care what BC says, thats not entertaining poker. if you want to be a pro, fine. put in the work and grind it up. poker wont change a hell of a lot once you leave the fish puddles of micros. but, the micros are getting tighter and tighter all the time.....making it tougher to burn through those stakes. its like the 6 month training program got pushed off to 18-24 months. and i dont know too many people that can wait that long if they aren't in it for an eventual career change.

LHE, however, allows for a bit more splashing around. players are a bit looser. and, the losers take longer to realize they suck....if they ever do. thats just the nature of the game. they run bad, start to think they suck, hit a hot streak and forget all about the fact they suck. a NL player/fish goes busto so fast, he has to come to grips with his suckiness a lot quicker. therefore, the fish are still terribad in the LHE tables. and, it is my opinion that the more fish gravitate to LHE, they will tend to stick because they dont lose their money so quickly.....they can actually receive some entertainment value from it.

but, i digress.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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dranger7070
Old 05-17-2009, 01:48 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Yea, I've heard about 4/8 being less sucky in terms of rake, but there's only one casino/card room nearby and it only has 3/6 so I'll stick with what I've got I suppose, no biggie.

Totally agree with the thing about NL lol. Either everyone plays like a rock, or they are so LAG that they go busto in a matter of minutes. I know some guys that have been stuck at 10nl for a while now, too but thankfully I've managed to move through the micros at an "ok" pace. Took me 6 months to get me from $10 and playing 2nl, to $1200 and playing 25nl so I'm pleased with that.

A bunch of my buddies that play exclusively NL are laughing at me for liking limit so much, but idk. There's certain things about this game that are extremely appealing. I love how it forces you to think about ranges and your opponents in the hand so you can extract maximum value. Obv you're SUPPOSED to do this in NL, but I can autobot my way through 20 tables and just make generic decisions and have a decent winrate, but I'm sick of mindless poker for the moment.

I'll def be coming by more often, posting hands, asking questions, all that good stuff.
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Chopper
Old 05-17-2009, 02:59 AM #13 (permalink)  
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great, youre welcome any time. post some hands, and we'll fire up some debate, if possible.

oh, and NL players hate LHE because it is supposedly "boring." but, keep trying to tell them that LHE doenst let you shove your stack and buy a pot....you have to earn the damned thing. so, to me, LHE is the "sweet science" of hold'em.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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dranger7070
Old 05-17-2009, 05:49 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
great, youre welcome any time. post some hands, and we'll fire up some debate, if possible.

oh, and NL players hate LHE because it is supposedly "boring." but, keep trying to tell them that LHE doenst let you shove your stack and buy a pot....you have to earn the damned thing. so, to me, LHE is the "sweet science" of hold'em.
So true, I have so many friends that think LHE is such BS since you can't earn maximum value (villain's stack) in a hand, but I feel that it makes you play better postflop since you NEED to play better in order to get that extra BB in the pot. NL is just so much about betting so ur opp can't buy chase profitably, LHE is about getting that extra V-bet in before he realizes he's beat. I love that.
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Micro2Macro
Old 05-19-2009, 01:39 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 For the record I plan on learning LHE more in depth next year, regardless of my quote dranger has made public lol.

Good insight on LHE vs NLHE, Chopper.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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