Originally Posted by Chopper

are these live, hence no converter? if so, are they 5/10 or below? if so...

hand one... i call here all day long. i see 444/KT/A4 here a lot, but i also see someone trying to pull a fast one on me, too. in other words, i pay it off. with KQ, i may fold, though. that c/r usually has a one pair hand beat. although, looking at it, this may not be so good, we pretty much only beat one pair hands. but, i call w/o taking time, usually.

hand two... yes, they are completely trapped by a huge pot and are only calling one more. its a 21bb pot when its one back to them, they cant be 95% sure you are on a boat.

hand three... yes, he calls. again, this pot is even bigger. there is at least a 5% chance you are bluffing.

here's the thing, imo, and i know you know this...

losing these pots to lesser hands is the fastest way to brokesville. however, calling off one more bet, IS just one more bet. if the pot were HU and .5 bb's, then, calling off "one more" is pretty bad. but, when you have winning chances in big pots (ie 2pr+), i think you have to make crying calls.

you dont have to win THIS EXACT SCENARIO 1 in 20. you only have to win those like it. flushes when the river pairs, str8s when the flush hits, sets with proper boat odds into a aggressive player, etc. these situations come up a lot. and, i can remember seeing some stupid shit bluffing or overplaying their hands.

these are all calls, imo. i will gladly spend one bb to win 20 when i see only 3 to a straight or flush.

Originally Posted by LawDude

But what I don't follow is the reasoning that "because the pot odds are so high, you should always make the crying call".

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Who is following this blanket reasoning without thought though? Crying calls are NOT automatic.

The advice to often make a crying call in a huge pot is only applicable in conditions where:
1) there are no players left to act behind you
2) you actually have a hand, ex. "I called down the nut flush draw and missed but I still have A-high" against multiple opps is not a hand
3) the board isn't painfully obvious, ex. 4 spades, 4 to a straight and an overcard on the river, your JhJd is no goot.

If you're suggesting that you don't always make crying calls, good. But it's best to make that decision based on stats and situations, not when you have a "gut feel" that you're beat.

Originally Posted by PlayinLdP

I see what you are saying Lawdude regarding the crying calls. It is a part of my game that I question over and over when I make calls with hands like Ace high. But, I mainly play 6 max and Ace high still has some value. I am relying more on my reads as I get better to make marginal laydowns or calls, instead of auto-calling every hand that contains an Ace or a pair.

Since this is live play it is hard to relate with the moment, because every table has a life to itself and must be played accordingly. It sounds like you did have a good read on a few of these players.

Again hand 1, I am ultra aggro. with my big hands, I usually don't slow down and I try squeeze in any extra value I can when I think I'm ahead. But knowing you didn't have the nuts and it was very likely he did according to your read you played the turn correctly. But again I think the call on the river is necessary even if your read is Phil Ivey like!

Hand 3, I see what you are trying to achieve here. There is greater value with suited Aces in full-ring limit so making a call is not always a mistake. But I think this call in MP1 is generally going to cost you in the long-run. First of all you have to figure your up against somewhat of strong hand with the UTG raise. If he is a total donk who would raise JKo there then I would raise back with a lot of hands, but I probably look for something a bit stronger. AJs and better and try to isolate the org. raiser with a re-raise.
In the hand you played, the worst thing possibly happened pre-flop, it got capped. Now you are OOP and playing with a marginal hand. This is a hand to be played in the CO or Button, because you can raise for a possible free turn card when you flop a flush draw or you can smooth call when necessary to maximize opponents in the hand. If a hand is not good enough to play offsuit it is generally not good enough to play suited. Of course it value goes up in this situation but don't overvalue it. Odds to flop a flush are .08% and a flush draw is 10.9%. I think when you get capped here you have to guess the only way to win this hand is a) flush, b) trips 9's or 2 pair and c) some other lucky hand like a straight. Either way you are paying too much to see these possibilities through in this instance.
What I have learnt over the past couple months is just how crucial position is with the value of your hand. Position is actually everything! To me it's the only way to make money in the long run, by playing position appropriately, especially with good but possibly dominated hands like A9s.

Originally Posted by LawDude

Benny, your approach is quite reasonable, but indeed, I have read several books on limit where the authors basically say that if you have a made hand on the river, you should always make the crying call on the river because it is just "one more big bet".