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littleogre
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07-07-2006, 08:00 AM
Post subject: critique the following hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J , Q .
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.
Flop: (5.60 SB) A, T, J (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, CO calls, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls.
Turn: (7.30 BB) J (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, CO calls.
River: (10.30 BB) 5 (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, CO folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 16.30 BB
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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I don't think I like any of the streets.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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well the game was loose passive so qj is playable from any position. On the flop i hit mid pair+ the nut str8 draw. once utg bets when you consider my odds and my outs a fold is out of the question. yet we need to protect incase the 2 left to act behind ne have a flush draw. Thus the raise. Once i hit trips on the turn expierence tells me that if i raise he will likely go into check call mode. So it is better to just call the turn and spring into action on the river. You clearly have a different line in mind and i welcome you to post it even though i may not agree .
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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You won't be able to protect your gutshot from flush draws, they'll have the correct odds to call regardless.
I fold preflop with QJo in UTG+1.
You have a player behind you on 4th street. If you're going to raise, do it now. Your hand is not pat. Get value out of it as it is still vulnerable.
River meh
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MrSmiley23
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 72
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P/F too early position, but if your going to play it raise it.. Why the hell are you raising that flop???? & raise that turn
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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well the game was loose passive so qj is playable from any position.
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You should have included this information in the original post
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when you consider my odds and my outs a fold is out of the question. yet we need to protect incase the 2 left to act behind ne have a flush draw. Thus the raise.
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Be careful you don't overestimate your outs. How many outs do you think you have ? I'd give you about 6 (6.8 : 1 odds). With 3 players behind you who could raise it is not so clear cut as you make out.
Given that you are not going to fold, your raise is not necessarily going to get any FD to fold (they will have 4.3 : 1 pot odds) , but you might get a Kx or a Qx to fold.
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Once i hit trips on the turn expierence tells me that if i raise he will likely go into check call mode. So it is better to just call the turn and spring into action on the river.
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AA,TT,AJ, KQ, JT all have you beat. All possible for an utg limp pf. You are beating AK, AQ, AT. I would be inclined to just call the turn and river UI.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Guys, maybe I am not seeing it, but what was the final result of the hand? Did UTG limp with AA, did he have KQo, did he flop a set of 10s? I would like to know what he was 3 betting the river with, he must have been strong, which means he limped UTG with a big hand. You may have played the hand incorrectly, but UTG certainly gave away a ton of information on how he/she plays monsters in early position. Oh, and your comment about raising the flop to isolate against flush draws is ridiculous. The only place that would work would be on the turn. On the flop the possible flush draws were laying 6.5-1 to call, so your bet here is a waste. However, had you simply smoothed called the flop, then raised the turn, the draws would have known you hit the jack and could have wisely layed down their hands. Although, when you look at the numbers, if they had the nut flush draw they would have also had a gutshot draw and plenty of equity to stay in the hand. I am surprised by how many people think they can force out flush draws, it is not going to happen, even on a paired board with multiple big cards. Oh yea, make sure you write the end result.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Results aren't everything
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I know they aren't everything, however, I am just trying to get into the psyche of his opponent here, I just want to know what he/she could have possibly been 3 betting on the river. If it was a monster, it will help illustrate why you shouldn't limp in early position with a hand as weak as QJo. Please don't discredit what I am asking, I wouldn't do it unless I had good reason.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I won as the villan had kk. As far as how many outs i gave myself that would be
3ks not counting king of diamonds
1.5 for the jacks
1.5 for the oueens
or 6 outs
bigspenda73 it is usually thought to be bad form to post the results of a hand before people have a chance discuss it. Lastly even if you cant push flushdraws out that doesn't mean you shouldn't raise and force them to pay for there draw. Let me ask you a question lets say you flop a hand like tptk and the pot has 8 small bets in it or whatever but it is big enough that a bet can not push a flush draw out. You are 100 percent sure they have a flush draw. For the sake of argument lets say you can see there cards. Are you gona check because they'll call anyway or try to get more money in the pot while you are infront?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I see your point about the flush draws and of course Im going to lead when I think someone is on a draw. My main thinking in wanting to know the result is I tend to put ppl on way too big of hands, and with you telling me he had KK and he three bet it just illustrates more that I played a little scared at times. I would have had him on a lot bigger of a hand to three bet there. Im new to this forum and wasn't aware about when it was ok to ask for the result of the hand, please bare with me...
thank you
'spenda
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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the idea behind no results is to make the "universal" decision. as in which one works best in most cases.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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I think you should raise the turn and cry if he 3bets.
I've got no problem with the other streets.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Like i said i appreciate everyones advice. now let me give my reasoning behind not raising the turn. For the most part the people i play at the low levels where i hang out are very scared of paired boards. So i'm thinking if i raise and he is behind he will go into check call mode. In which case i would make 3 big bets on the turn and river. Now if call the turn and raise the river and he just calls my river raise which is what will usually happen when they cant beat trips i make 3 bets. Basically there are lots of scenerios so i would politely ask for someone to explain why raising the turn is better. If i raise the turn don't i put most opponents that can't beat trips in check call mode?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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IMO you made your money here b/c you were playing against a poor opponent. You should consider yourself fortunate the he/she raised the river with a hand as weak as KK here. Honestly, what hand could they have beat. Here's the deal, I like raising on the turn to try and make a draw lay down to a paired board. However, if you feel you can get the same amount of bets in on the river by playing it slow on the turn you were correct in doing so. But, what if a straight or flush card hits? The opponent with KK is gonna 3 bet it and the straight or flush is gonna cap it, then you lose a lot more bets than you should have.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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So i should raise the turn to try and get the 3rd party out?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Only if you can make the third player call two bets cold, this is called an "isolation" play. If they are able to call the bettor, then you raise, it will not make their hand shrink enough. If the player is any kind of limit player he/she will have to fold as your play represents a strong hand.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Only if you can make the third player call two bets cold, this is called an "isolation" play. If they are able to call the bettor, then you raise, it will not make their hand shrink enough. If the player is any kind of limit player he/she will have to fold as your play represents a strong hand.
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Actually i understand what an iso play is . i only asked the question because i wasn't sure if i should use it in this situation when the player i am trying to push out will probably call anyway. should i still raise the turn for value?
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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yes
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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« Ì don`t think I like any of the streets »
Priceless.
Littleo, I just got to this thread and won`t read past your second post until I post my reply, but as Sklansky notes, in order to play Qjo from EP, game conditions have to be practically perfect. They may well have been, but I thought it was worth noting.
You mentioned that a fold is out of the question. I disagree—here`s why :
You have only middle pair with a very, very threatening flop--
There`s a two flush already on board. Some of your outs are therefore compromised;
since KQ is a common hand you may be drawing to four outs JUST TO TIE;
it`s essentially impossible for you to count a Q as an out since it puts four to a straight on the board, and a K is a very common card for an opponent to hold.
I therefore put your hand at about 6. 25 outs—
2 for the Jacks
3 for the Kings (you`ll often split the pot if a K comes in, and if it`s the K of spades you may be in trouble)
0 for the Queens
1.25 for the second nut spade redraw
Two other painful aspects of this hand are
you`ll often pay heavily when you hit and lose (i.e. a second J appears on the board when someone has a straight or catches a straight or flush on the river; )
you won`t make much when some of your outs come in since a K on the board will slow down anyone without a Q.
So, with a pot this small (6 small bets), only 6.25 outs of 47, the not insignificant chance you`ll pay heavily when you hit and still lose, and the good chance that someone behind you will raise if you call, make this a clear fold on the flop. I don`t think your flop raise will be effective, either, since you`ll never fold a flush draw (they always have odds to call you), a set, or two pair, and the chance of getting 3 bet is substantial.
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