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COUPLE QUESTIONS,PLEASE HELP

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BILLABONG

01-15-2005, 08:16 PM Post subject: COUPLE QUESTIONS,PLEASE HELP

#1 (permalink)

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IM a successful* no limit player for those who dont know. However, im tryin to sharpen my limit skills for the sole fact I want to be able to hold my own in limit ring. But to me limit and no limit are completely different. In no limit if I bet and I have two players in the hand with me by the turn or even by the river,I know im probably behind in the hand. But in limit where players can chase more due to pot odds. I figure having two or three players in my hand by the river means nothing in how i stand in the hand.

So one of my questions is if I Raise preflop and one player calls me and I have top pair good kicker on the flop and a player who I dont have a read on before me bets, and I raise to which he calls on then bets out on the turn before me..what am I supposed to do? I have many options, either I can Re-raise again, I can fold, or what I believe is the best thing to do AS LONG AS IM GETTING PAID atleast 4:1 at this point, (which in limit im sure ill b receiving) ill call the turn bet and river bet if he bets again. because to me its ignornat to fold top pair with no flush or straight showing when im getting paid 4:1 on my money...So whats the best thing to do in a scneraio like this?

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Fnord

01-15-2005, 08:48 PM

#2 (permalink)

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A "stop and go" like that is often top pair and god knows what kicker too chicken shit to 3-bet the flop trying to avoid giving a free card or cheap showdown. Or it might be a straight forward player that improved on the turn. You really have to know your player and put it in the context of the board.

You certainly should call down. Consider popping it again either on the turn or river.

Big picture, limit is more about driving value and showing down the best hand more often than not. It's 90% playing your cards and 10% playing the player, but that 10% is everything in a game where every edge puts you above the rake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

BILLABONG

01-15-2005, 09:50 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 102

Thank you Fnord for your comments, so basically I atleast with 4:1 pay need to call this player down,not fold. Now let me ask you another question. Same scenario except two players besides me in the hand, with the other player simply being in the hand calling everything, (NOT RE_RAISING WAR,obviuosly I would fold then) But with one more player in the hand calling everything should I consider calling? In no limit with two players in the hand your not lookin good. However in limit that other player could simply be on a draw with pot odds.

Fnord

01-15-2005, 09:56 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BILLABONG

obviuosly I would fold then

I wouldn't.

Overall, it depends. Know your player and just what his call means. If he wants to pay you off all the way on 4 outs or less, don't rush to knock him out if you're in a "way ahead or way behind" situation with the aggressor.

Here's a hand from today. 8/16 live game

UTG raises, solid player but too passive.
LP cold calls, loose passive but has more than one brain cell.
I 3-bet from the SB with AK
BB folds and everyone else calls

Flop is K-T-rag rainbow.

I bet, UTG raises, LP cold calls, I check/call down the rest of the hand.

UTG shows KK and he's good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

BILLABONG

01-16-2005, 12:21 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 102

So basically your sayin the amount of players in the hand really doesnt show where you stand in limit and really should have no influence on wether to call or not, just cuz theres more then one player in the hand with you and you have top pair like the scanario before,

QUESTION 1:keep calling with good pay out odds right?

In no limit im never limping unless I have a pocket pair and im tryin to hit a set or if I miss ill quickly get out, with my style its either raise or fold and solely be the aggressor, in no limit I can play like that for two reasons, 1: I can knock out my opponents pot odds if he has a draw because I can bet more and 2: I can be the aggressor only raising or folding for hours being very patient because my implied odds are so great with any hand due to the no limit bets. In no limit I win hands with one pair more then any other hand...

However, im wondering since in limit since im goin to be constantly be getting outdrawn due to pot odds that my opponents are receiving,

QUESTION 2:do you think that number will be higher then the amount im winning with top pair (x=outdraw>x=top pair)?Let me give you an example of why I dont* think that will neccassarily be losing more...

Blinds are .50 $1
OPPONENTS CALLING SUSPECTED FLUSH DRAW AFTER FLOP
I RAISE TO:$1 OPPONENT CALLS:$1
POT=$2
I BET:.50 OPPONENT CALLS:.50
POT=$3
I BET:$1 OPPONENT CALLS:$1
POT=$5
I BET:$1 OPPONENT FOLDS ROUGHLY 64% OF TIME DUE TO HIM MISSING HIS FLUSH DRAW/OPPONENTS RAISES $1 ROUGHLY 36% of TIME DUE TO HIM HITTING HIS FLUSH DRAW, WHICH I CALL.
I CALL RAISE:$1

There for Ill win $2.50 roughly 64% of time from my opponent hitting flush draw which comes to $160.00 profit
But ill lose $4.50 roughly 36% of time from my opponent missing flush draw which comes to $162.00

A flush draw is the highest percentage my opponent has of making a draw so thats why I used that specific draw. As you can see, im only goin to lose $2.00 in the long run and thats for only one opponent callng to try and draw out on me, for every extra opponent in the hand, for example with two players in the hand ill actually be making money because when my opponents miss there draw ill be getting paid 2:1.

So with that being said....

QUESTION 3: do I really need to play good limping drawing hands like TJ to try and draw out on my opponents, because im not sure what the odds are of flopping a flush draw or a straight draw is, but im only goin to flop a pair 40% of the time, and unless im playin with both my ho cards higher then a jack (QK,QA,or AK, hands I would only raise with) even if I have a ho hand like TJ, and flop a pair 40% of time, a card higher then my jack ( a Q,K,or ACE) will apear on the flop 56% of the time which means I wont be flopping top pair...and ill be scared to bet with middle pair...

QUESTION 4

r do you think I can make money playin tighter only raising or folding?

So now with all that being said...

QUESTION 5:do you think winning with top pair is goin to make it far in limit? Or am I goin to probably have to have hands I can take advatage of due to great pot odds im receiving from my opponents like drawing for straights or flushes mostly?

QUESTION 6:So basically any type of drawing hand I receive preflop I must play so I can draw out and make up the money I lose for players drawing out on me right? So, I have a book on limit ( Ken Warren ) but I just wanted to know basically if drawing hands like QT is a must now in limit or if you think I can keep my overall profit up in limit without playing these hands?....(However if you think I can get by by not* having to play these hands and only use my raise ir fold method, ignore this question....)

Also one last thing, if you reccomend taking up starting to play drawing hands like JT in limit, Ill have to start playin in limit, I wanted to ask this... In this book I have (Ken Warren Limit ) it has a odds section showing the odds of someone having a better hand then you preflop for a 9 and 10 player table. And basically let me say this, in a 10 player preflop table, any ho* hands with both cards being a ten or higher, for example, if I have TJo at a 10 player table preflop. I have roughly a 50% chance noone else holds a better hand then me. Noone having 22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT,TQ,TK,TA,JJ,JQ,JK,JA,QQ ,QK,QA,KK,KA,or AA.

QUESTION 7: With that being said, why should I even play ho hands lower then that, such as hands like 67suited ? Why go into a pot already a underdawg? This theory makes no sense to me....(However if you think I can get by by not* having to play these hands and only use my raise ir fold method, ignore this question....)

If im wrong or not adding something up right on anything in this post, let me know....

|~|ypermegachi

01-16-2005, 01:49 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

QUESTION 1:keep calling with good pay out odds right?

last time i checked you call in NL too when you're getting odds.

Quote:

However, im wondering since in limit since im goin to be constantly be getting outdrawn due to pot odds that my opponents are receiving,

QUESTION 2:do you think that number will be higher then the amount im winning with top pair (x=outdraw>x=top pair)?Let me give you an example of why I dont* think that will neccassarily be losing more...

you're assuming they actually have suited cards, and flopped a flush draw, which is next to nil. in fact if this was heads up they've already theoretically lost money preflop for calling with just anything suited. the flop call is ok, but the turn call they lose money again. implied odds is just break even.

Quote:

QUESTION 3: do I really need to play good limping drawing hands like TJ to try and draw out on my opponents, because im not sure what the odds are of flopping a flush draw or a straight draw is, but im only goin to flop a pair 40% of the time, and unless im playin with both my ho cards higher then a jack (QK,QA,or AK, hands I would only raise with) even if I have a ho hand like TJ, and flop a pair 40% of time, a card higher then my jack ( a Q,K,or ACE) will apear on the flop 56% of the time which means I wont be flopping top pair...and ill be scared to bet with middle pair...

just because there is an overcard doesn't mean your opponents has one. if there are 4 other people in the hand, yes probably some has you beat, and someone else has lots of outs to beat you. it's not worth continuing. but if it's only 2 or 3 opponents, your hand is probably still best, you can't find out if you don't bet.

Quote:

QUESTION 4: Surprised do you think I can make money playin tighter only raising or folding?

no. raising when you should call will cost you overcalls.

Quote:

QUESTION 5:do you think winning with top pair is goin to make it far in limit? Or am I goin to probably have to have hands I can take advatage of due to great pot odds im receiving from my opponents like drawing for straights or flushes mostly?

you need both.

Quote:

QUESTION 6:So basically any type of drawing hand I receive preflop I must play so I can draw out and make up the money I lose for players drawing out on me right? So, I have a book on limit ( Ken Warren ) but I just wanted to know basically if drawing hands like QT is a must now in limit or if you think I can keep my overall profit up in limit without playing these hands?....(However if you think I can get by by not* having to play these hands and only use my raise ir fold method, ignore this question....)

you're missing out on a lot of money if you don't play speculative hands. the money you expect to win with speculative hands is EASILY MORE than what you lose to others.

Quote:

QUESTION 7: With that being said, why should I even play ho hands lower then that, such as hands like 67suited ? Why go into a pot already a underdawg? This theory makes no sense to me....(However if you think I can get by by not* having to play these hands and only use my raise ir fold method, ignore this question....)

because you're paying 1 small bet to potentially win 15 big bets.

gabe

01-16-2005, 03:12 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

if 4 others are in the hand and you have 2nd pair, pot odds probably do justify continuing for trips or 2 pair.

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