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chardrian
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07-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Post subject: Couple pre-flop questions
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#1 (permalink)
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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No reads on these players
What do you do preflop given I'm BB and pot odds?
Hand 1
Paradise Poker 5/10 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 4 , Q .
UTG calls, Button raises, SB calls, [color=#666666]
I'm pretty sure UTG will call so I have $5 into a 35 pot - is this an automatic call - I just hate the Q being dominated.
Hand 2
Paradise Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, 5 .
UTG raises, MP calls, Button calls, [color=#666666]
Again $5 for $35 pot - this one I like better but... fold or call?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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fold and fold.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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There is no way I even begin to consider calling with either hand...
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Fold, offsuit dominated hands have trouble beating the rake even with the BB sunk cost.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Ok - that makes me feel much better.
When the flop came up two pair each time, I semi-convivnced myself that I had made the wrong play by folding.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Drop down to 2/4 if you're asking these sorts of questions.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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i don't know about that. the odds are pretty good here for him to call and see if he hits trips/2 pair. i wouldnt blame ne one for calling those.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ender555
i don't know about that. the odds are pretty good here for him to call and see if he hits trips/2 pair. i wouldnt blame ne one for calling those.
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Consider that he will hit and lose showdown a large % of the time. Also, consider that pot odds dictate he must continue on worse flops. Finally, consider that lots of really great players aggree that you're unlikey to beat the rake here even with the sunk cost.
If you're calling here, is it ever correct to fold your BB for 1sb if it's 4+ way?
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Even if those hands were suited you'll have a tough time beating the rake. (being suited is important, but it doesn't add as much value to a hand as some people think - trash is trash, suited or not).
See this card-player article (and the others in the series) for some additional info on blind defense (notice how the author even says that both you and the raiser may have a hard time beating the rake in some heads-up situations).
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...=13824&m_id=85
Notice how the basic theme is 'it depends'; its difficult to summarize what hands you should and should not play from your blinds since how you should play is so situational.
Although this may be obvious to most, one piece of advice that I can give is to not call raises from your blinds with less than stellar hands out of annoyance, or because you are tired of player xyz always raising your blinds. I used to make emotion-based calls from my blinds all the time and this was costing me lots of money.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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well I will bow down to experience, but from a tournament background that i come from i would usually call in these situations and hope to flop big.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Although this may be obvious to most, one piece of advice that I can give is to not call raises from your blinds with less than stellar hands out of annoyance, or because you are tired of player xyz always raising your blinds. I used to make emotion-based calls from my blinds all the time and this was costing me lots of money.
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Amen to that. Still trying to patch that leak up for good.
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xxDFOCxx
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Canada
Posts: 83
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those are crappy starting hand and they are easy fold. I see those and I click on the "fold/check" button and go to the next table. You have to think to the implied odd also. how much will he have to bet on the flop, then the turn then the river....... it not anymore 5$ for a 35$ pot.....
I you see the flop for free and hit big, good for you, but if it cost 0.01$, FOLD
Plus your out of position, with very bad SH.... no brainer for me,
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Although this may be obvious to most, one piece of advice that I can give is to not call raises from your blinds with less than stellar hands out of annoyance, or because you are tired of player xyz always raising your blinds. I used to make emotion-based calls from my blinds all the time and this was costing me lots of money.
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Amen to that. Still trying to patch that leak up for good. |
I disagree and agree. I've always advocated playing loose from the blinds. If these cards were suited, I'd be in the pot. You'll get the best preflop odds to call a hand on the SB and the BB, even in a 1/2 blind structure. If five people are in for a raise, you are getting 10-1 to call from the BB. You'll get even higher odds for more opponents. I'll play any two suited from the SB with 2 limpers and 4-5 raisers, I'll play any two suited from the BB with 3-4 raisers, depending on how good my suited cards are. Facing 8-1 odds, hardly a suited hand is -EV preflop.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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I agree 100% about playing more loosely from your blinds (the better pot odds make it correct to do so), but in my epxerience the majority of players that this too far (at least in the B&M) and play too many hands in their blinds (I hear comments like " I've already got $10 in the pot, so I have to play any two cars for $10 more" all the time). Don't lose sight of the bad position you'll have post-flop; often both you and your opponent will miss the flop, but because they has position on you they will take the pot.
I generally follow SSH's blind play recommendations and use knowledge about how my opponents' play to decide whether or not I should give respect to their late position raises.
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