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chardrian

05-30-2005, 08:47 PM Post subject: Couple more questions

#1 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Hand 1

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T

, T

.
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3

, T

, 8

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 6

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 5

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 3h 9h (one pair, threes).
Hero has Tc Th (three of a kind, tens).
SB has Jh Qh (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.50 BB.

I still wuss out on the river - but the flush was just screaming at me. After getting killed on hands like these last week, I wussed out. Looks to me like they both would have folded to a bet anyways, so was this ok - or better to bet and grab my ankles in the long run?

Hand 2

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, 7

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 7

, T

, Q

(7 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 6

(6 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (10.66 BB) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qs 7d (two pair, queens and tens).
MP1 has 7s 6s (two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.66 BB.

Played ok here?

Hand 3

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7

, A

.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) A

, 5

, J

(2 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 4

(2 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, MP1 calls.

River: (5.66 BB) 4

(2 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has Qd Qc (two pair, queens and fours).
CO has Js Jd (full house, jacks full of fours).
Outcome: CO wins 7.66 BB.

Woo hoo - not playing every A does have advantages.

Hand 4

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, 9

.
4 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 2

, 2

, 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.66 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Ad 9c (two pair, aces and twos).
Button has Kh Ks (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 6.66 BB.

Play ok here or should I just give that up to a 3 bet preflop?

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stuck

05-30-2005, 09:04 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 586

you're missing lots of bets.

hand 1:
bet/call the river

hand 2:
3-bet the turn

hand 4:
raise the turn

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

chardrian

05-30-2005, 09:11 PM

#3 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

you're missing lots of bets.

hand 1:
bet/call the river

hand 2:
3-bet the turn

hand 4:
raise the turn

Dunno - hindsight is always 20/20. Hand 1 I agree - gotta bet (but i don't think it lost me any bets).

Hand 2 - 3 bet that turn?? 89, TQ, 66, 77 have me toasted. To be honest I thought I lost this hand to the 89, or Q higher kicker on that river.

Hand 4 - tougher. I didn't want to lose to A higher kicker which was very likely there. Figured it was 50/50 that he had TT-KK or AJ-AK. I guess I'm more of the I'd rather win 7 BB than lose 5.

Curious to hear more input on hands 2 and 4.

stuck

05-30-2005, 10:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 586

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

Dunno - hindsight is always 20/20.

Even with out it, you're still missing bets. Try not even having the results posted -- post them later, after you get feedback.

Even if you don't 3-bet the turn on hand 2, I think you call and then lead out on the river. You're good too often to not. Same with the latter hand. You're good too often to not.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

Fnord

05-30-2005, 10:50 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

In hand 4 my line is check/call, check/call, bet/call

Weak/tight disease. This kind of poker doesn't win at most Party 3/6 tables because thinking TAggs and sTAggs will run you over. I love you guys because you often play too tight, fold too much and miss bets. Just give you position and steal buttons, pots and blinds all day long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

05-31-2005, 01:20 AM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

I think I played every street correctly...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with K

, K

.
6 folds, CO calls, Fnord raises, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 2

, K

, T

(2 players)
CO checks, Fnord bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) J

(2 players)
CO checks, Fnord bets, CO raises, Fnord 3-bets, CO caps, Fnord calls.

River: (11.66 BB) 9

(2 players)
CO bets, Fnord raises, CO 3-bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 17.66 BB

Results:
CO has Ac 3c (flush, ace high).
Fnord has Kd Kc (flush, king high).
Outcome: CO wins 17.66 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

chardrian

05-31-2005, 01:24 AM

#7 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Ok I understand both hands 1 and 4.

Hand 2 - I still say I end up giving more than I end up taking when I reraise a turn with mid 2 pair. From what I've seen (no poker tracker, but easily over 50,000 hands) a raise on the turn is generally 2 pair or better (with the occassional over pair and TPTK). In this case the only hand I beat was that low 2 pair. I think I'd play it the same. Is that really that

Fnord

05-31-2005, 01:38 AM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

a raise on the turn is generally 2 pair or better (with the occassional over pair and TPTK).

This is true at the Party .5/1, most 1/2 games and often true at Party 2/4. However at Party 3/6 and most bigger online games, it's top pair, a semi-bluff or a pure bluff often enough to call down with top pair and sometimes 3-bet top pair up.

2 hands from the last *hour*

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with T

, T

.
5 folds, Fnord raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 5

, 5

, 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord calls.

River: (7.16 BB) Q

(2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 6h 4h (one pair, fives).
Fnord has Td Tc (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with T

, A

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2

, 3

, 6

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Button calls, Fnord calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A

(5 players)
Fnord bets, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Button raises, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11 BB) 7

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Kh 8h (high card, ace).
Button has As 4h (one pair, aces).
Fnord has Th Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB.

Consider that there is a big different between "I'm probably beat" and having pot odds to call down between the chance of having the best hand, sucking out and table image.

If you like laying down pretty good hands when you're probably beat, play NL ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

stuck

05-31-2005, 02:00 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 586

Do I raise this river? First hand at the table (I posted the BB)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

, 4

. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5

, 4

(5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J

(4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A

(3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

I'm thinking: no. If he has the flush he 3-bets me and I lose two bets, and SB may not call, so I'll win on average say an extra 1.5 bets if he doesn't have the flush. Keep in mind that SB could also have been chasing the flush.. I think going for the overcall from the SB is the best line.

Then again, it was a donk-bet.

Am I missing a bet here?

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

Fnord

05-31-2005, 03:12 AM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

I would just call that river too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

chardrian

05-31-2005, 02:29 PM

#11 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Consider that there is a big different between "I'm probably beat" and having pot odds to call down between the chance of having the best hand, sucking out and table image.

If you like laying down pretty good hands when you're probably beat, play NL ring.

I agree. All I was saying is that a turn 3 bet in that situation (or in yours) wasn't worth it. I'm not laying that hand down (and I wouldn't have laid down your hands either - although the turn raise with the TT woulda had me grabbing my ankles

) - as you can see I didn't. Just saying it was not worth the 3 bet.

chardrian

05-31-2005, 02:32 PM

#12 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Do I raise this river? First hand at the table (I posted the BB)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

, 4

. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5

, 4

(5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J

(4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A

I call that river. Too much beats you and BB was chasing something... both the flush and the 23 beat you.

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