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nogenius
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10-09-2005, 03:17 PM
Post subject: A couple more limit questions (.25/.50)
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 772
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PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (0 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop:nogenius is UTG with Q , Q .
nogenius raises, mateo7 folds, MN_Mime folds, geoklies folds, Franksa calls, DNME folds, jizzlober calls, CJN folds, redfedda1 folds.
Flop: (7.5 SB) 6 , 4, A (4 players)
nogenius bets, Franksa raises, jizzlober folds, nogenius ???
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Should I assume his flop re-raise means he has an ace and get out?
Question #2: Being relatively new to limit, I'm using this starting hand chart that says to limp A2s - A9s from middle to late position.
If the pot is raised after I limp, I have correct odds to call the extra bet and see a flop, right?
And when you play Axs, do you generally let it go (if you bet out, are called, and then face a bet on the turn) if you hit top pair but your kicker is weak?
Thanks in advance.
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He has Ax and he's calling down to the river. I guess the best line would be to call and see if you can spike a queen or if he slows down on the turn.
As for your second question, since you called when the pot was 1.5SB for one SB, why won't you call when the pot is 3.5SB for one SB?
Catching an ace usually sucks. Sometimes you have the best hand and get raised off. That's why you want to have a flush or wheel draw. And you have good odds to improve a lot of the time.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Call, if you dont improve on the turn check/fold.
Question 2) Throw the chart out the window. Stomp it out. Burn it. Don't limp A2s - A9s from middle position unless you know when that is profitable. You need several limpers in the hand to make this profitable. If UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, and MP1 folds, you can't limp A2s-A9s. You just wont have the odds.
Question 2) If the pot is raised after you limp in, you can call the extra bet 99.999% of the time. If, however, it is raised after you and then RE-raised, you need to think a bit more carefully.
Qustion 3) If you play Axs and flop top pair, you need to recognize that you are pretty easily beat. However, calling down isn't a horrible play at .25/.50. A lot of people will be playing worse.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Can someone show me how you can possibly justify a call here?
There is a player remaining to act and you got raised out of position on a very boring looking Axx board. Easy fold without a read, move onto the next hand.
If I'm calling here, I'm probably going to showdown...
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thenonsequitur
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10-10-2005, 10:26 AM
Post subject: Re: A couple more limit questions (.25/.50)
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#5 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by nogenius
Should I assume his flop re-raise means he has an ace and get out?
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The board is very uncoordinated, and the only high card on the board is an A. What is he raising you here with? I say you have to put him on a pair of Aces (unless you have some definite specific read on this player that tells you he will raise here with something else). You have only two outs to beat him and the pot is not large, so you don't have good odds to call, even after factoring in the extra bets you will win when you luck out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nogenius
Question #2: Being relatively new to limit, I'm using this starting hand chart that says to limp A2s - A9s from middle to late position.
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As euphoricism pointed out, a starting hand chart is best used as kindling.
Instead of using a chart, think about the odds and logical progression of the hand to give you the right decision. Think about how loose/tight and how passive/aggressive your opponents are as well as your position and how your opponents play post-flop. Start simple by evaluating whether you think calling will result in a multiway unraised pot (aka lots of limpers). The worse your position, the more limpers you need to expect to make the hand profitable (and the more difficult it will be to determine how many limpers there will be).
For example, in a very loose/passive game you can sometimes get away with profitably limping Axs from EP if you figure (with near certainty) that you are going to get several more limpers and no raises. In a tight aggressive game, don't even limp Axs from middle position. Often you won't get enough over-limpers, or people will raise after you.
To help your decision, also factor in the rank of the kicker (A8s is better than A6s and significantly better than A2s), and also factor in how your absolute position or position relative to other particular players will affect how the hand will pan out (will you be able to take this pot down with aggression, will you be able to easily make the right play if you hit an A, how well will you get paid off when you hit a good hand, etc...)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nogenius
If the pot is raised after I limp, I have correct odds to call the extra bet and see a flop, right?
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Right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nogenius
And when you play Axs, do you generally let it go (if you bet out, are called, and then face a bet on the turn) if you hit top pair but your kicker is weak?
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Yes, I usually let it go here, but there are definitely situations where it is worth calling down or raising to protect your hand or get a cheap showdown.
Consider big things like your absolute position, the size of the pot, any draws you might have, and who is doing the betting (what will they bet with? what are they likely to continue to show aggression with if you call? if you raise?)
Also think about how the board may have connected with other players' hands, your position relative to the person doing the betting, and how many people are in the pot.
This is a lot of factors to keep track of, but after a little practice, you will take most of the above into account and more almost automatically. Just take a moment to think about the factors involved here and this is usually not too dificult a decision to make.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Can someone show me how you can possibly justify a call here?
There is a player remaining to act and you got raised out of position on a very boring looking Axx board. Easy fold without a read, move onto the next hand.
If I'm calling here, I'm probably going to showdown...
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I really dont like raising and folding to a flop reraise. If the guy has any idea what he's doing, he'll start raising me anytime an overcard flops. Seeing the turn for one SB isn't horrible. It preserves an image as well as gives you the (albeit very small) chance of hitting a two outer. I Check/fold the turn unimproved.
Granted, at this level, image probably doesn't matter much.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
I really dont like raising and folding to a flop reraise. If the guy has any idea what he's doing, he'll start raising me anytime an overcard flops.
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You're making an assumption about this player both knowing what he's doing and paying enough attention (for most people, this means playing 1 or 2 tables) to act on this information and being in enough hands with us for it to matter. Although it's quite possible this fold hurts me in a B&M setting...
How does folding the flop look much worse than calling the flop and folding the turn?
Finally, if he does try to make moves on me on Axx flops I will punish him when I do have it and start calling down or even play back in spots like this sometimes.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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Granted, its fairly likely this guy isn't paying that much attention or smart enough to do it.
Folding the turn is fairly standard, folding the flop just "looks off".
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
folding the flop just "looks off".
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For people who play in games where players will call 1sb with little reguard to the cards in their hand...
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You call because he's not watching, but someone else is.
Also, he might not even bet the turn. He might have middle pair. Now he might suspect you have him beat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Also, he might not even bet the turn. He might have middle pair. Now he might suspect you have him beat.
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I think he's much more likely to bet the turn if you have the best hand...
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
folding the flop just "looks off".
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For people who play in games where players will call 1sb with little reguard to the cards in their hand... |
Like .25/.50?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Also, he might not even bet the turn. He might have middle pair. Now he might suspect you have him beat.
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I think he's much more likely to bet the turn if you have the best hand... |
Uh... people at those stakes are fish
They bet more with stronger hands
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