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Chopper

06-04-2007, 03:39 AM Post subject: couple more hands

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

heres one i am extremely perplexed by...

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T

, T

.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 6

, 7

, 9

(6 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 5

(6 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

River: (13.20 BB) 5

(4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Button folds, BB calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 15.20 BB

i cannot call here on the turn when i am drawing so thin. i figure there has to be an 8 out there now. the river aggressor won with JJ.
is there a way i could have played this better, in your opinions?
and, can/should you bet this river with JJ when only calling the previous streets?

heres one, though, i am very proud of...

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J

, K

. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.40 SB) 6

, A

, Q

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.20 BB) T

(3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB

first, i limped the hand pf. i am always tempted to raise the field out when i am offsuit and 1st or 2nd to act.
second, i bet the turn, and only CALL the raise. the reason is i feel very strongly that i can c/r the river for one more. rainbow means at worst i split the pot.
and i hit the mother load when this guy raises me on the river.

had i done what i would normally do and 3bet the turn, i prolly dont get a caller on the river, much less a cap.

one more question.

when i hold KJo, and UTG openraises, do i 3bet if i am certain it will fold the rest and if i am confident i can outplay him post flop?

i see this a lot.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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bigspenda73

06-04-2007, 04:24 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

If someone opens UTG in full ring limit barring reads you should be folding KJ.

My range for opening UTG in full ring would look like this:

TT+, AQs+, AKo

Ragnar4

06-04-2007, 08:54 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

The only problem with 3-betting him, is if he caps you. You're WAY Behind going to the flop. Never a situation you want to be in. Always give UTG respect unless they are mentally retarded. As you drift towards middle and late, if the first guy opens the pot from the middle, then, maybe you can try to outplay him with a raise. But KJo is one of those "poisonous hands" that Sklansky and Malmuth talk about calling too many raises with and going to far with them. Basically if you aren't suited, and connected, don't call a raise with it.

As for re-raising. I don't know... depends on your read on the player doesn't it? I'd re-raise if I was certain he raised with 88+ from that position. I'd autofold if I knew he only raised AA, KK, QQ, and JJ.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Coolidge

06-04-2007, 08:02 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 13

I raise both these hands preflop.

On the KJ hand, I just go nuts on the turn, instead of waiting to CR the river.

Chopper

06-04-2007, 08:09 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i am certainly NOT the authority here, but i think you guys are underestimating the stupidity at my level. but, then again, maybe you are underestimating my stupidity, too. lol.

but i still think that KJ+ is ok down here. i really think the ranges i see are far too wide to take these hands out of your calling range. situational of course, but still.

i ran a "look see" at my numbers so far. granted, i have a very small sample size at fr right now (which brings up another point i'll address in a minute). but... both holdings are VERY profitable right now. as is AK and AQ. AJ, however, is showing me some problems, as is KT (only slightly). but again, this is a super small sample, and means next to nothing.

if i include my 6 max numbers, i still show a massive profit with these hands, and AJ comes around to be profitable, too.

my AXs and KXs are fine (all profitable, KX not too profitable, but positive), and my pp's are being overplayed.

if i include my 6max numbers i am over 10k hands...a start. i know you purists will say that 10k is still way too small, but i beg to differ. i feel you can tell how the holdings may trend w/ 10k hands...you just dont put a lot of stock in them...yet.

my "later point" is most will say that 6max is where the donkeys play, but it requires a more solid post flop game to catch them. i only agree somewhat. i feel that players are WAY too loose at a 6max game, and you can gain a very significant edge in pre-flp play...and that only sets up your post flop advantage further. do you guys feel its possible to be a better 6max limit player than fr? yet, be a better fr NL player than 6max?

i guess my point is, that i seem to be playing these "trap hands" ok, for now. and i seem to be playing a ton of other junk...why i dont know. i hope to get enough numbers under my belt that you guys may start to agree with me that the "trap hands" with a solid post flop strategy, are worth a raise in most situations, and worth an iso 3bet.

again, at these stakes. but we'll see.

as for the capping of my KJ, i agree, but again, at these stakes i see J7s going in for a cap about as often as i see AA. like i said, stupidity down here is underestimated.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

NWNewell

06-04-2007, 08:29 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Raise hand 1 preflop, it will probably make it easier to play post flop. And if you were JJ you could probably bet this river. I would doubt that the second 5 helped anyone. And it looks like everyone missed their draw.

Your KJo call is fine if you feel you have your opponents ranges beat. But for the most part I'm not a big fan of playing KJo form the first half of a FR table. Most of the time I play KJ0 in later positions for an open raise or call with limpers.

PS If someone open raises, you should be folding KJo from every position (except maybe BB with good pot odds). And I'm not crazy about that flop bet either, with two players left to act behind you. Too many donks will limp with any Ace and play that weak pair of Aces passively (especially at the lower stakes). I think you will be betting with only 4 outs too often here.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

KoRnholio

06-04-2007, 10:44 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

1. Raise preflop. As played, call turn, call river. BB could easily have something other than the straight. Hands like A9/K9/T9 or worse fit his actions. If an 8 comes you will pick up a lot of bets because no one will fold, some may even raise

Also, if he has 2 pair, you have 6 hidden outs against his hand. MP3 played this hand very well, and we would have ended up losing to him anyways, but he is more likely to have AK/AQ/etc than a bigger pair.

2. Check flop to try to get a free card. With 4 others in the pot and 2 of them with position on you, it is very unlikely that you will be able to fold them out or get them to check behind on the turn.

I'd usually just 3bet the turn since there's no way he can put you on KJ when you bet that flop. Don't underestimate the things that people will call you with. Squeeze all the value that you can out of them. The main problem with waiting until the river is that a K or J may come off and then you may not even get one more bet in, let alone a check-raise.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

06-05-2007, 08:27 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

you guys can play the "science game" all you want. imo, sometimes you have to go with your gut...as in hand 2.

sure, KJ is poison...thats not news. but with only a draw, i bet this flop all the time. it is a semi-bluff (bad one, maybe), and i have outs to the nuts on a rainbow board. and i am not convinced there is a weak A out there. if someone had the weak A in late pos, they prolly raise (at least from what ive seen). mp3 certainly raises AX, if he wants to play it. and CO was poster, so, i doubted he had crap, especially when he checked pf.

so, i have to get aggressive when i miss the flop to have any hope of winning the hand. a small flop bet may induce a raise out of a hand that is strong, and may fold out crap like bottom pair.

and if i 3bet the turn here, i dont get the aggression on the river.

sure, play by the book and you may raise the flop, if you decide to even play the hand. you check the flop, and can hardly call a bet with the A up there (you only have a gutshot draw).

three bet the turn, and you may get one more on the river, but call the raise on the turn, and he will try to bluff (or bet his second best hand) again on the river...because you let him keep the initiative. take it away, and you cost yourself another bet. he 3bets because he thought i was trying to c/r him off the river...he was so wrong.

my thougth process.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

KoRnholio

06-05-2007, 10:06 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

you guys can play the "science game" all you want. imo, sometimes you have to go with your gut...as in hand 2.

Limit hold'em is more science than art.

Quote:

sure, KJ is poison...thats not news. but with only a draw, i bet this flop all the time. it is a semi-bluff (bad one, maybe), and i have outs to the nuts on a rainbow board.

Sure you have a 4-out draw to the nuts. But the biggest value of semi-bluffing comes from the times your opponents all fold. That is hard to do with 4 opponents (especially at .25/.50). Heads up, fire away. Multiway, check and hope for a freebie.

Quote:

and i am not convinced there is a weak A out there. if someone had the weak A in late pos, they prolly raise (at least from what ive seen). mp3 certainly raises AX, if he wants to play it. and CO was poster, so, i doubted he had crap, especially when he checked pf.

It's been a while since I've played this level, but I doubt that these passive opponents are going to raise any small or medium aces after people have already limped in. People will also call you with pretty much any pair here, making your semi bluff even worse off.

Quote:

so, i have to get aggressive when i miss the flop to have any hope of winning the hand. a small flop bet may induce a raise out of a hand that is strong, and may fold out crap like bottom pair.

Your only hope of winning the hand is spiking a ten, hitting a K when someone doesn't have JT/Ax/KQ/etc. If you get re-popped on the flop, you just end up paying more for a 4-outer that you could have possibly gotten for free had you checked.

Quote:

and if i 3bet the turn here, i dont get the aggression on the river.

Possibly. This is the one part where the non-science read on the player is important. How many bets will he put in on the river with 2 pair/set type hands? Will he go off like a maniac with many hands if you show weakness on the turn? Most players won't 3bet much against a river check-raise though.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

06-06-2007, 01:26 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

all true, but honestly...

i felt like calling pf...no one was folding. to see if i hit a monster.

i missed on the flop...but thought i'd take one shot with my backup to the nuts...had no intention of going farther.

oops...hit my luckbox on the turn, and imo, played it right from there...given the table/opponents....with a bonus on the river.

very lucky. deep down, i knew that one.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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