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correct thought process plz..(rather long)

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Chopper

09-04-2008, 08:25 PM Post subject: correct thought process plz..(rather long)

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

these thought processes are probably "close but no cigar." please correct them as necessary.

i just played live, and it's AWFUL. they are so bad. i have played NL once, and LHE about 3 times.

i was down $60 today (3/6 LHE)...or only 10 bb's. so, nothing in terms of poker. 4/8 is hard to come by here, especially on my morning schedule of availability. 3/6 sucks because the rake is practically unbeatable....but, after today, maybe not as long as the thoughts are correct.

these guys always call, and never raise. i had ATo utg (after being there long enough to pick up on some things). i limped it...and got 3 callers. i donked a 7 9 3r flop. i got a caller....only called...lol. i hit the A on the turn. i led again. he called. i led blank river. he called again. wiiiiiiith? KK! can you believe that. he never 3bet me pre, or raised my flop. what a dillhole. (i'm glad he played that way, but it frustrates me that they can be so stupid)

i have many other hands like that, and they led me to the conclusion that if i have 2nd pair, its not even worth playing the hand when someone bets (as a default)....without the player being obviouslly aggressive from other hands. i see them call two cold on the flop with draws, but the only thing i see leading out is TP.

another thing i learned...the SB is the WORST possible place to play from at a passive table. you raise your big hands from there (AQs+,JJ+) and they still call you with crap should i be raising much wider? like A8s+,88+,KQs?). now you have a huge pot on a ragged flop that misses you and when you check, they fire with a crappy pair that you are rather far behind now. so, if you have JJ, as i did, and you have a flop of Q 8 5r. your JJ is meat if you get a bettor and a caller. you may as well c/f because if you bet, they call, and, you still dont know where you are. brutally punishing position.

however, i got the best tip of the day. there is a bad beat jackpot at our casino. it was over $200k today. not bad. but, it had everyone going ga-ga for it. it was "BBJ this" and "BBJ that." however, they kept "chopping" the blinds, too, when it folded around....which was often today for some odd reason. seems its stupid to refuse to chop because, if you refuse, they will hate you, and you dont want them to start playing their best against only you. (correct?)

so, they kept saying, "i'll chop it since i dont have a BBJ hand." and, i wondered, "what is a BBJ hand since it seems to be their only requirement to limp in." so, like the table fish....i asked them. (i figure it never hurts to make them think you are stupid about poker...lol..jury still out there)

they tell me that since the BBJ is awarded when quad 8's or straight flushes get cracked when using BOTH your hole cards, you need to play every "BBJ hand" you can because "you never know when the BBJ will strike." (ok, first its nothing more than playing a god damned lottery, and thats not why i play poker. the odds of hitting it are so bad, its not worth loosening up that much for, but they dont care, so fuck 'em, i want to get a tip on their ranges.)

well, thanks. now i know what almost ALL of you are limping with. any sooted 3gapper and any pp. so, that includes 63s as well as Q9s. they are all limping that shit.

hmmmmmmmm. now because they are playing SO loose, how do we take advantage? we know they dont fold much pf. so, should we raise wider since they will call in dominated situations? but, i also assume we dont really do much with O/S broadways, like KJo, without seeing a flop first since they will chase down amazing draws. pp's will have great set odds now, so we probably play all of them?

basically, we dont play offsuited marginal stuff for raises, but we play ALL suited marginal stuff and raise the upper end of it? KXs becomes profitable from late now if there are a couple limpers and we can see a cheap flop.

however, because they limp so much, they CANT raise much. why? because they miss so often, and flop marginal pairs so often, they would go very broke very fast if they played aggressively. how do we take advantage of that?...

by realizing they wont fold any single pair or any draw. and, we dont bluff them w/o a good hand ourselves. we should likely play our draws rather passively, most times, until it completes? but, we never miss even the thinnest value bet...here's a hand for you to exemplify...

i have AsQs in the SB (imagine that). three limpers. i raise, of course, they call.

flop: Ah6d4h. pot is (8sb's). of course, i lead out, and may three bet a raise? but, no one raises. so, i lead and get them all to call. what do they have? well, theres naked A's in there. there is crappy wheel draws. there is a flush draw. none of which are going anywhere. so, as long as the heart flush doesnt hit, i doubt i am going anywhere in this pot, and dont slow down until raised on a scare card.

turn: Td. (pot 6bb's). well, thats a good card. i doubt theres a runner runner flush draw in there right now. and, if so, it aint folding either, but it also aint hitting often. i lead and all call.

river: 6d (pot 10bb's). UH OH! thats a pretty scary card for me, too. completes the backdoor diamond draw, and gave a 6 trips. but, if i bet those hands raise dont they? but, i doubt anyone bluffs at this table/level that i wouldnt have noticed by now. so, as passive as these dillholes are, i can pretty safely fold to a raise. so, i lead again. and, get called by one player.

it was A5o. i drag a 12bb pot worth $72. but anyway, never miss a value bet when playing a passive table.

so now, what about when THEY bet? i noticed that only TP bets out. i never saw worse do it. not once. the only time i've seen worse do it was a guy that was betting draws and rather aggressive. another hand...

as i mentioned earlier, i have JJ in sb (another in SB). i see three limpers. i raise. flop comes Q 8 5 r. i have a strong 2nd pair, but realize that the Q will bet, the 8 likely wont, and neither will 67 or TT. so, can i take a card off to see if anyone hit that Q? or because so much of the worse stuff calls my lead, is this still a b/f with 2nd pair and the fact these guys drag overcards? if its HU, i definitely get more aggressive...is THAT the key here? i doubt they raise if i lead, making me think i still wont know where i am with a hand i dont want a big pot with. so, i check. i see a bettor and one caller. i safely fold. i may peel (loosely, mind you) if the pot goes HU when the 2nd player folds (but he didnt). but, with a caller, i know one is likely on a draw and the other, the bettor, has the Q. he showed Q8o for 2 pair.

i giggled at that one because this idiot open limped a pot with Q8o and called a raise from the SB in a 4-way hand. now, thats not just bad.....thats suicidal. (but, i guess not if you can hit two pair...lol)

bottom line: raise only your super premiums. (or do we need to raise wider?) only raise when you are likely best and WANT them to stay in ...because they wont fold to a bet and raise if they have the slightest draw. therefore, you accidentally force them to play correctly by calling with odds once you bloat a pot with TP. and, dont worry so much about "protecting" your 2nd pair hands like online. this level is small enough, i dont know if it even helps since draws are betting as default moves.

limp LOTS of speculative shit. but, play all hands likely to be best FAST. dont slowplay shit. dont miss a value bet. i dont even know if we go for c/r's except to build a pot on the flop when the player to our left bets and the others call.

and, realize their range is so wide, even in a raised pot (thanks to the BBJ), they are on a huge range that makes only 2 pr+ a strong hand because you will get chased down by ragged draws and gapped gutshots. and, the schooling effect will destroy one pair hands quite often, especially if they contain an A.

please find and correct my "holes in logic." as some of this is probably correct, and some needs to be corrected.

thanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Chopper

09-04-2008, 08:25 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

sorry that was long. thanks to those who take the time.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

09-04-2008, 10:03 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

yikes! long topic!

Some tips....

1. Since they dont raise much PF, limp all your small pairs and medium high scs from any position.
2. Raise with big pairs, suited broadways, A9s+, AQo+. Generally you will do this from any postition, whatever the action. Except for extreme cases. Since they are so passive, if it is raised and 3bet PF before you, u can muck all the crap.
3. Keep playing aggressively, dont miss value bets. Dont forget that the nut flush draw in a 4way pot where you figure to get calls by everyone should be bet for VALUE.
4. Evaluate weaker draws specifically.
example: you flop a gutshot, are in the button, and the 5 players check to you. bet it! Not as a semibluff, just to get a free look at the river since these passives wont bet the turn into you wo a big hand and they rarely will c/r you on the flop.
5. Keep protecting your hands, even if "it doesn't work, they call anyways". You have to charge them a max for their weak draws. Sometimes they will win the pot, but more times you will, and you need to punish their odds. Do this as much as possible w TP or better. It is also for value. Dont protect weaker hands like midpair, since they wont hold up that much, treat them as drawing hands to trips/2pair. Continue w 7-1 or better, muck otherwise, unless HU.
6. complete sb w any2 if 4+ limpers in the pot. Continue w good hands (trips, 2pair...) by betting aggro all the way.
7.always c-bet in position! this will punish worse hands than your Ahi, and most of the time u'll get a free river card if you dont improve.
8.If someone raises or donks into you, treat it with respect. continue w odds or a decent hand.
9.free card plays will work a beauty in position w your decent FDs, OESDs, gutshot+2overs...
10.free showdown plays shouldnt be used since they are less likely to semibluff.

asdpikas

09-04-2008, 10:31 PM Post subject: Re: correct thought process plz..(rather long)

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i have many other hands like that, and they led me to the conclusion that if i have 2nd pair, its not even worth playing the hand when someone bets (as a default)....without the player being obviouslly aggressive from other hands. i see them call two cold on the flop with draws, but the only thing i see leading out is TP.

HU or 3handed, especially in position you should still bet. As in your AT vs KK example, you dont fear a raise! it's a thin valuebet (a bit higher variance but definitely ++++EV). They will call with more hands you beat than beat you, and the better hands wont punish you by raising... close to heaven!
If you do get raised, watch out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

another thing i learned...the SB is the WORST possible place to play from at a passive table. you raise your big hands from there (AQs+,JJ+) and they still call you with crap should i be raising much wider? like A8s+,88+,KQs?).

Definitely raise wider, A8s+,88+,KQs, KJs, QJs, JTs, AQ+
These hands have a definite PF edge against their hands, and are easy to play postflop. They also will hit many many boards.
Dont raise with high unsuited cards, just complete and continue if you hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

now you have a huge pot on a ragged flop that misses you and when you check, they fire with a crappy pair that you are rather far behind now. so, if you have JJ, as i did, and you have a flop of Q 8 5r. your JJ is meat if you get a bettor and a caller. you may as well c/f because if you bet, they call, and, you still dont know where you are. brutally punishing position.

Those are the breaks! Many times the flop will come 973r and you'll be in heaven.
You do touch a point here, you have to raise PF, but be very ready to muck postflop where you'd continue against aggressive opponents that may bluff semibluff. Be ready to muck mediocre hands like the JJ 2nd pair with too much action.
I would still bet out, and reevaluate if i get 2 calls, muck if i get raised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, i got the best tip of the day. there is a bad beat jackpot at our casino. it was over $200k today. not bad. but, it had everyone going ga-ga for it. it was "BBJ this" and "BBJ that." however, they kept "chopping" the blinds, too, when it folded around....which was often today for some odd reason. seems its stupid to refuse to chop because, if you refuse, they will hate you, and you dont want them to start playing their best against only you. (correct?)

sure, who cares about bvb play here? just chop it and keep them happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

hmmmmmmmm. now because they are playing SO loose, how do we take advantage? we know they dont fold much pf. so, should we raise wider since they will call in dominated situations? but, i also assume we dont really do much with O/S broadways, like KJo, without seeing a flop first since they will chase down amazing draws. pp's will have great set odds now, so we probably play all of them?

basically, we dont play offsuited marginal stuff for raises, but we play ALL suited marginal stuff and raise the upper end of it? KXs becomes profitable from late now if there are a couple limpers and we can see a cheap flop.

Only raise offsuited broadways in position to isolate and get the initiative.
Play all pps for 1bet, even utg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, because they limp so much, they CANT raise much. why? because they miss so often, and flop marginal pairs so often, they would go very broke very fast if they played aggressively. how do we take advantage of that?...

WE RAISE our better hands, punishing their weak hands. They dont.
GOOD TRADEOFF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

by realizing they wont fold any single pair or any draw. and, we dont bluff them w/o a good hand ourselves. we should likely play our draws rather passively, most times, until it completes?

OOP, play passively, in position, bet/raise flop as a free card play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i have AsQs in the SB (imagine that). three limpers. i raise, of course, they call.

flop: Ah6d4h. pot is (8sb's). of course, i lead out, and may three bet a raise? but, no one raises. so, i lead and get them all to call. what do they have? well, theres naked A's in there. there is crappy wheel draws. there is a flush draw. none of which are going anywhere. so, as long as the heart flush doesnt hit, i doubt i am going anywhere in this pot, and dont slow down until raised on a scare card.

turn: Td. (pot 6bb's). well, thats a good card. i doubt theres a runner runner flush draw in there right now. and, if so, it aint folding either, but it also aint hitting often. i lead and all call.

river: 6d (pot 10bb's). UH OH! thats a pretty scary card for me, too. completes the backdoor diamond draw, and gave a 6 trips. but, if i bet those hands raise dont they? but, i doubt anyone bluffs at this table/level that i wouldnt have noticed by now. so, as passive as these dillholes are, i can pretty safely fold to a raise. so, i lead again. and, get called by one player.

it was A5o. i drag a 12bb pot worth $72. but anyway, never miss a value bet when playing a passive table.

indeed, never miss a bet. be ready to fold to a raise on the river most times, if you cant beat 2pair or whatever obvious draw came in.
Bet/fold is the way to go against them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

as i mentioned earlier, i have JJ in sb (another in SB). i see three limpers. i raise. flop comes Q 8 5 r. i have a strong 2nd pair, but realize that the Q will bet, the 8 likely wont, and neither will 67 or TT. so, can i take a card off to see if anyone hit that Q? or because so much of the worse stuff calls my lead, is this still a b/f with 2nd pair and the fact these guys drag overcards? if its HU, i definitely get more aggressive...is THAT the key here? i doubt they raise if i lead, making me think i still wont know where i am with a hand i dont want a big pot with. so, i check. i see a bettor and one caller. i safely fold. i may peel (loosely, mind you) if the pot goes HU when the 2nd player folds (but he didnt). but, with a caller, i know one is likely on a draw and the other, the bettor, has the Q. he showed Q8o for 2 pair.

bet/fold all the way

[/quote]

Chopper

09-05-2008, 12:29 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

thanks. i'll read these two tonight after kids go to bed.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

09-05-2008, 09:20 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Don't raise AJo from the blinds, it doesn't play well in a 5-handed pot
AQo can be raised

The problem with AJo is you only have TPTK with a jack-high flop, and sometimes you get flops like KJx/QJx where you're not sure where you are, whereas with AQo the only flop like that is KQx and you also have a better kicker in case the flop is ace high

Raise AJo from all other positions, though if no one opened yet

okiman

09-05-2008, 04:27 PM Post subject: Re: correct thought process plz..(rather long)

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

by realizing they wont fold any single pair or any draw. and, we dont bluff them w/o a good hand ourselves. we should likely play our draws rather passively, most times, until it completes?

thanks.

But make sure to bet your strong draws on the flop. You know they'll call with any draw, any pp, or any part of flop (or worse). When you know you'll get several callers on every flop, you want to get their money in now. You've got an equity edge, so take advantage of it. Also, after betting the flop, you'll get checked to on the turn, giving you the turn and river for 1/2 bb. And then you might get someone to lead into you on the river if their overcard (or, with these players, undercard) hits. Extra money for your draw when it completes.

In a table this loose/passive, I'd also play any Axs in any position. You'll get enough callers to simply play this hand for flushes, aces up, and trips. And you don't have to worry about getting raised preflop (if they won't raise KK, you're only worried about 1 hand and 1 of the aces is gone).

Chopper

09-05-2008, 04:41 PM

#8 (permalink)

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i appreciate all the time you guys are giving this thread. and, i have taken a lot into consideration. when winter comes, i'll hit the casino a little more often. i feel that with the right conditions/strategy in place, the casino's rake can still be beat. i didnt think that until i realized how poorly/obvious these guys are playing. this is an oldschoolNFHEpremoneymakereramorningtimeretiredold manlivinginvegastoplaypokerandgolf styled game.

i assume this game will be kind of high variance, but i bet it produces 2-3 bb/hr AFTER rake and tips, if i can play correctly.

i think 22+, AXs, AQ+, KQs, QJs, 89s+ are playable from any position at a table like this.

my main problem is that we were short-handed most of the time. we had about a 7 player average. so, i needed to do more raising and the player pool wasnt going 6+ way to flops because one guy would fold in limped pots pretty much no matter what. i saw a lot of blind chops, due to this, and only one family pot, surprisingly.

but, i have been given a lot to think about and adjust slightly. when i get back there, i will probably update here again.

however, keep any new thoughts coming. this has been great for discussion, imo.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

bigspenda73

09-05-2008, 06:02 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

way way way tl;dr

anyways live lhe is my favorite game, it's totally social because people feel more comfortable at the table than they do at a NL table.

I always tried to play kill games, either 3/6 or 10/20 when I played live, more action, more mobnies!

Chopper

09-05-2008, 06:35 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

found a 2/4 half kill and a 4/8 full kill. i imagine 2/4 would rape me rake wise. i would rather play 4/8 for those same reasons.

now, why a kill pot? dont people rock up in the kill pots? i would think i'd rather sit in a spread game, but i cant find any.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Fnord

09-07-2008, 08:59 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Read Ed Miller's Small Stakes hold'em if you want to know how to crush those games.

That said, the 3/6 rake is downright oppressive. With the recent rake hike in SoCal, I don't think anything smaller than the 8/16 half kill game is beatable for any amount of money worth anyone's time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

09-07-2008, 10:13 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

OK, explain the rake to me please

In the casino I was in Vegas 3/6 had 10% rake

but in Bay 101 this is what they say is:
COLLECTION RATE SCHEDULE
Limit 7 or more 6 5 or Less
$2/4 thru $20/40 $4 $3 $1

wtf does that mean

Chopper

09-07-2008, 02:24 PM

#13 (permalink)

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cant help you there. but, i can give you an easy "estimate" of what the casino will do to you.

take your "rake" column in PT and double it. subtract that from your winnings and re-calculate your winrate manually. if you are still a winner, it just took a big hit. throw in tips to dealers, if you win a decent pot, and you really start to leak off money.

as for SSHE, i've read it several times, but never after playing live. so, i went back and skimmed back through it, and had multiple revelations about just how good this book is for exactly the games i play. so, that requires more study, obv. but, wow, what a book! he's dead on.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

09-07-2008, 03:31 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Well, it would work if I played 1c/2c online
otherwise my winrates are substantially different
$0.25/$0.50 online opponents are better than your local $3/$6 crowd

Chopper

09-07-2008, 04:24 PM

#15 (permalink)

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i agree, but all i am saying is to look at the rake you pay. double it (to 10%) and, look at what it does to your winrate.

i never said that competition was the same.

just because you can kill .25/.50 online does not mean you will even beat 3/6 live. the rake will make sure you barely beat it, if at all.

thats also why i did that "live play prep" experiment. i wanted to find players that would emulate the live crowd. and, 1/2c is still more aggressive than 3/6 live, in my casino. nothing that cant be handled, i am just saying there is nothing as passive as low stakes live play.

in that experiment, i also calculated the rake, and at 1/2c it was pretty close with a 10% rake. translate that into a 3/6 winrate, cut down the hands/hour, and its not worth any more than a hobby...at best.

if you want to play for realz at a casino, you need to play NL, Omaha, or step it up to higher limits. 4/8 games are extremely hard to find in STL. so, when i find one, i sit on it. but, 3/6 is a once a month type of hobby for me anyway. i'm not a pro, and never will be one. i just consider myself "ok" and by far not the easiest money at the table....in spite of my fishness.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

09-07-2008, 04:51 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

I can kill 3/6 live and just barely beat 0.25/0.50 for like 3BB/100 or something

even if I'm getting 1bb/100 after rake that's still better than the online game because it's bigger

but I don't even know if I can beat the rake at online 3/6 because the competition might be stiffer (never tried it, though)

asdpikas

09-07-2008, 10:19 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

3bb/100 is pretty good

Chopper

09-07-2008, 10:40 PM

#18 (permalink)

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makes me wonder what "killing it" at 3/6 is. and, just how accurate those calculations are.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

09-08-2008, 02:23 AM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

makes me wonder what "killing it" at 3/6 is. and, just how accurate those calculations are.

I would consider killing it to be a steady winrate of 10-20$/h over a big enough sample size live, which would be more than 40 sessions of 8h each
Still, live records are harder to keep...
Most of us are live winners since we remember the big wins, and immediately dismiss from our minds our losing sessions. I don't keep written track of my live play (since i hardly ever play live) and most ppl dont either.

09-08-2008, 05:29 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

makes me wonder what "killing it" at 3/6 is. and, just how accurate those calculations are.

I got $160 over 8 hours and I wasn't getting any cards... just a few big pairs that I made all the money with - I had one suited connector the entire night

and of course I didn't tip anyone, you're not cutting into MY profits, dealer
although I should have tipped the dealer that was messing with me... he was funny, he would tell me it's my big blind when it wasn't and then laugh at me if I did post it
he didn't catch me the second time he did it though

back to the poker, the other TAG at the table made several hundred dollars that night, I think he was up more than 300
he was playing hands like A6o for a limp and getting paid off on top pair from clueless tourists

Chopper

09-08-2008, 01:13 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

makes me wonder what "killing it" at 3/6 is. and, just how accurate those calculations are.

i think you missed the point.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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correct thought process plz..(rather long)

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