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okiman
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08-25-2008, 01:55 AM
Post subject: correct river line on no fold 'em hold 'em table
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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I've been working on toning down the river aggression, but want to make sure I'm not getting to passive.
I had only been at the table for a little over an orbit, didn't have a history with these players or notes on any of them, but it was clearly a no fold 'em hold 'em table (with 5-6 players seeing most flops and very little raising). Was the river c/c the right line here with 6 players and only holding one pair?
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q , Q . MP3 posts a blind of $0.5. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (17 SB) T, J, 8 (8 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.
Turn: (14.50 BB) 2 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.
River: (20.50 BB) 4 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.
Final Pot: 24.50 BB
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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you got the perfectest river, bet/fold it
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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In a 20BB pot on the river there you will get calls from anyone with a pair pretty well. Plus, given the action it doesnt seem that anyone has you beat.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I'm betting the river and usually paying off a raise.
Not a big fan of the flop raise.
Quote:
Someday you will make such a fold, it will be a good one and you will
be happy. You will be able to afford a shrimp cocktail at Binions with
the saved bet and maybe even treat a friend.
Feeling like a champ, you will do it again someday. But, this time a
guy with Q2s will drag your pot, buy the cocktail waitress a fur coat
and f*ck her blue for a week. Now which guy do you want to be? The
smart one with the shrimp cocktail or the stupid one with the sore
dick?
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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Fnord, what would you suggest? A call on the flop followed by a raise on a safe turn card given my position on the original bettor? My thought process was trying to raise out Ax, Kx, spp, and trash hands that could runner/runner me. I know I can't get 2 overcards, Jx, or a 9 to fold that flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by okiman
Fnord, what would you suggest? A call on the flop followed by a raise on a safe turn card given my position on the original bettor? My thought process was trying to raise out Ax, Kx, spp, and trash hands that could runner/runner me. I know I can't get 2 overcards, Jx, or a 9 to fold that flop.
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imagine now if it went:
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls...
and the turn went
BB bets, Hero raises
now THAT'S protecting your hand
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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This pot is so huge from the get go that waiting to raise would only reduce their odds from 9.5-1 to 7.5-1. What do I get to fold here on the turn that won't fold the flop? The oesd still calls. The tp still calls. The flush draw that opened up on the turn (assuming the turn isn't a spade) now calls when he might have folded the flop raise. If it's just to build a bigger pot against expected trash hands from calling stations all around, I see it. If it's waiting for a safe card with so many scare cards, I see it. But to better protect my hand? Against what?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Flatting the flop and raising the turn will better define other hands, induce incorrect folds and get hands like top pair, middle pair, gutshots, etc. to certainly consider folding.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by okiman
flush draw ... might have folded
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LOL
Don't ever expect a flush draw to fold
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by okiman
flush draw ... might have folded
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LOL
Don't ever expect a flush draw to fold |
No, I certainly wouldn't expect a flush draw to fold the turn, but on the flop when he only had 3 cards to the flush, he could. One of the reasons I thought a flop raise was better here to get the trash hands out.
Thank you all for the help on the hand. 2 misplays I needed to see on this one.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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As played I raise the river, nothing but 44 got there, I can't imagine anyone in this pot having two pair, and it's very likely all 3 are beat and at least 2 will call your raise.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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you got the perfectest river, bet/fold it
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@ .50/1.0 Limit I'm bet/calling QQ here.
From what I've seen these players are so bad that a check raise in this spot is extremely profitable. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone call two cold on that river with AK high.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Anyone who talks about "protecting your hand" in Limit HE below $.25/.50, probably hasn't played micro-stakes limit much.
I think you played it fine all the way. It's likely someone has you by now, but I would still bet/call the river.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Flatting the flop and raising the turn will better define other hands, induce incorrect CALLS and get hands like top pair, middle pair, gutshots, etc. to certainly consider folding.
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fyp.
A turn raise gives people 7.5:1 to call two cold (better odds if others call two bets ahead of them). So no-one can make an incorrect fold here unless they fold Tx (which would actually be v. close to a correct fold since you have two of their outs) or an FD. And those guys are not folding.
What you will get are guys calling with 3-5 outters like middle pair, gutshots, A high, etc., without odds and this is profit for you.
Ultimately, I think you raise the turn not so much to protect your hand as for value. There's a v. good chance you have the best hand here and all other things being equal every bet that goes in the pot is good for you.
As played, I can't imagine checking this river unless I'm certain someone behind me will bet and I can c/r (again for value). No reason to think that's going to happen here. And if I do bet and someone raises I'm not folding for one more bet either. Two pair my ass!
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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I think drivingdog has it right, 7.5:1 is definitely not something you want to call with one overcard, but they most certainly will
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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how do we b/F this river? if we bet it, dont we have to call?
when we bet, everyone calls behind us. if someone raises, i know it means we are beat 95% of the time, but the pot is over 20 bb's, AND the others will overcall, too, making it bigger.
if we plan to fold to a raise, dont we just c/c? i just dont see folding as an option here.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
how do we b/F this river? if we bet it, dont we have to call?
when we bet, everyone calls behind us. if someone raises, i know it means we are beat 95% of the time, but the pot is over 20 bb's, AND the others will overcall, too, making it bigger.
if we plan to fold to a raise, dont we just c/c? i just dont see folding as an option here.
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No one in their right mind should fold an overpair in that spot
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