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Correct raise?

  
 
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Yeldud
Old 05-10-2005, 01:08 AM     Post subject: Correct raise? #1 (permalink)  
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Is it correct to raise in this spot? Normally I try to limp pocket pairs below 88, especially from UTG+1. Here is my thinking on this. My table image is solid. CO and button are VERY loose, but have respected my raises - I wanted them out as they were next to impossible to put on hands because they would play any two. Unfortunately, I eliminated everyone but UTG. My fear was limping, spiking a set, and losing to CO or button with a Flush or straight. Once they were in they NEVER folded and always seemed to hit the miracle straight.

thoughts? - yes, I know I should have bet the flop.


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4, 4.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q, 4, 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.75 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 3h Qh (three of a kind, queens).
Hero has 4c 4s (full house, fours full of queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.75 BB.
If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek
 
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Fnord
Old 05-10-2005, 01:59 AM     Post subject: Re: Correct raise? #2 (permalink)  
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Call and bet your fucking hand. I think you missed 1.5BB here post-flop, as you often would get to 3-bet a turn check/raise and he'd probably still try to gaybet the river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldud
I wanted them out as they were next to impossible to put on hands because they would play any two.
When I have pocket 4s, that's EXACTLY the kind of player I want in the pot with me. Actually, I want as many players as possible in the pot and welcome as much action as I can get post-flop.
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ChezJ
Old 05-10-2005, 03:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 when you are shooting for a set, you need the pot to grow as big as possible. the reason is that you will miss the flop about 8 times out of 9. so when you do hit, you need that pot to cover all your prior misses, and then some.

the way to make the pot big is to invite multiway action. raising pre-flop before others have limped in prevents multiway action. had you raised from the button/blinds after a bunch of people limped in, that would be okay, because nobody would have folded and the pot would have doubled. but open-raising in EP, that doesn't work because everyone assumes you have AA/KK/AK and gets out of your way.

fnord noted that you missed 1.5BB of profit post flop. but when you account for the lost profits from the 3-4 limpers who might have been in the pot had you not raised pre flop, you really lost 3x-4x that amount post flop.

your total profit on this hand was about 2.75BB. that's a lot less than the 8:1 payout you needed to cover your previous pocket pairs that missed. if you play this way with every pocket pair, you'll end up at a net loss in the long run.

the only exception is if you manage to use your fold equity on the flop to rep TP (when you miss your set) and take down a small pot. but i don't think this happens much at 0.50/1.

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Room
Old 05-12-2005, 09:23 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I dont like the PFR at all. Best case here you're picking up the blinds and you're likely against 2 overs or a better PP. Being out of position is another consideration.
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-12-2005, 09:30 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I don't like the preflop raise, i would call here instead then bet my hand on the flop the if someone had the Q they are likely to raise, then check raise the turn, and I’m sure that you can get a bet out of him on the river, so you missed about 1.5 to 2bb...
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Element187
Old 05-12-2005, 09:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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ya limping is better, you want the full table limping in.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-12-2005, 09:40 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I would raise here preflop only if i think i have a chance in buying the blinds. If you are on a super loose table I call to invite more callers.

pocket pairs are a lot better than a majority of people put them on, you either want a lot of people in the pot to play with them or very few. you have the edge win HU, as your opponent will fold if he missed and you have position on the blinds.


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honsheung
Old 05-13-2005, 06:01 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Right, all agree that small pocket pairs must have a bunch of players to play with you, in order to cover the miss of a set in flop.

But personally, I even don't play small pocker pairs in early position. I muck them.

1) I am afriad of a raise from behind.
2) I am not sure if there will be enough players play with me.

Am i too conservative?
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