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Correct Preflop Call?

  
 
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allLiving
Old 07-19-2005, 05:03 PM     Post subject: Correct Preflop Call? #1 (permalink)  
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Keep in mind this is LIMIT HOLDEM


Table 'Cornelia' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: voltrondotu ($372.50 in chips)
Seat 2: snowdak ($75 in chips)
Seat 3: peteramone ($283 in chips)
Seat 5: cocobrain ($386 in chips)
Seat 6: POKER BOYY ($332 in chips)
Seat 7: roberps ($520 in chips)
Seat 8: Bluesman ($316 in chips)
Seat 9: allLiving ($484 in chips)
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 ($154 in chips)
Bluesman: posts small blind $2
allLiving: posts big blind $5
The BigChief: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to allLiving [5s 5c]
7BigBen7: folds
voltrondotu: folds
snowdak: folds
peteramone: raises $5 to $10
cocobrain: folds
POKER BOYY: folds
roberps: folds
Bluesman: folds
allLiving: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Kh Th Ac]
allLiving: checks
peteramone: bets $5
allLiving: folds
peteramone collected $21 from pot
peteramone: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22 | Rake $1
Board [Kh Th Ac]
Seat 1: voltrondotu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: snowdak folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: peteramone collected ($21)
Seat 5: cocobrain folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: POKER BOYY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: roberps (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Bluesman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: allLiving (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Keep in mind this is LIMIT HOLDEM

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allLiving
Old 07-19-2005, 05:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Another similar hand.

PokerStars Game #2138634370: Hold'em Limit ($5/$10) - 2005/07/19 - 13:06:01 (ET)
Table 'Cornelia' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: voltrondotu ($377.50 in chips)
Seat 2: snowdak ($138 in chips)
Seat 3: peteramone ($296 in chips)
Seat 4: The BigChief ($70 in chips)
Seat 5: cocobrain ($386 in chips)
Seat 6: POKER BOYY ($361 in chips)
Seat 7: roberps ($550 in chips)
Seat 8: Bluesman ($314 in chips)
Seat 9: allLiving ($472 in chips)
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 ($147 in chips)
The BigChief: posts small blind $2
cocobrain: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to allLiving [6c 6d]
POKER BOYY: folds
roberps: raises $5 to $10
Bluesman: folds
allLiving: calls $10
7BigBen7: calls $10
voltrondotu: folds
snowdak: folds
peteramone: folds
The BigChief: folds
cocobrain: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5d Ad 3c]
cocobrain: checks
roberps: bets $5
allLiving: folds
7BigBen7: raises $5 to $10
cocobrain: folds
roberps: raises $5 to $15
7BigBen7: raises $5 to $20
Betting is capped
roberps: calls $5
*** TURN *** [5d Ad 3c] [3s]
roberps: bets $10
7BigBen7: raises $10 to $20
roberps: raises $10 to $30
7BigBen7: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [5d Ad 3c 3s] [2h]
roberps: bets $10
7BigBen7: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
roberps: shows [Kd Ac] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
7BigBen7: mucks hand
allLiving said, "vnh"
roberps collected $159 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $162 | Rake $3
Board [5d Ad 3c 3s 2h]
Seat 1: voltrondotu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: snowdak folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: peteramone (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: The BigChief (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: cocobrain (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: POKER BOYY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: roberps showed [Kd Ac] and won ($159) with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 8: Bluesman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: allLiving folded on the Flop
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 mucked [As Qc]

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allLiving
Old 07-19-2005, 05:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Cold calling preflop here is correct since im first to act postflop right?

PokerStars Game #2138649484: Hold'em Limit ($5/$10) - 2005/07/19 - 13:09:28 (ET)
Table 'Cornelia' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: voltrondotu ($377.50 in chips)
Seat 2: snowdak ($123 in chips)
Seat 3: peteramone ($296 in chips)
Seat 4: The BigChief ($98 in chips)
Seat 5: cocobrain ($418 in chips)
Seat 6: POKER BOYY ($336 in chips)
Seat 8: Bluesman ($309 in chips)
Seat 9: allLiving ($462 in chips)
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 ($77 in chips)
allLiving: posts small blind $2
7BigBen7: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to allLiving [Th Td]
voltrondotu: folds
snowdak: calls $5
peteramone: folds
The BigChief: calls $5
cocobrain: folds
POKER BOYY: raises $5 to $10
Bluesman: folds
allLiving: calls $8
7BigBen7: calls $5
snowdak: calls $5
The BigChief: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Js Kc 7h]
allLiving: checks
7BigBen7: checks
snowdak: checks
The BigChief: bets $5
POKER BOYY: calls $5
allLiving: folds
7BigBen7: folds
roberps has returned
snowdak: folds
*** TURN *** [Js Kc 7h] [Tc]
The BigChief: bets $10
POKER BOYY: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [Js Kc 7h Tc] [6c]
The BigChief: checks
POKER BOYY: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
The BigChief: shows [Kh Qd] (a pair of Kings)
POKER BOYY: shows [Ks As] (a pair of Kings - Ace kicker)
POKER BOYY collected $77 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $80 | Rake $3
Board [Js Kc 7h Tc 6c]
Seat 1: voltrondotu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: snowdak folded on the Flop
Seat 3: peteramone folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: The BigChief showed [Kh Qd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: cocobrain folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: POKER BOYY showed [Ks As] and won ($77) with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: Bluesman (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: allLiving (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 10: 7BigBen7 (big blind) folded on the Flop

Should I have called a $5 bet here to try and catch a draw, or is this an obvious fold?

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chardrian
Old 07-19-2005, 05:39 PM #4 (permalink)  
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use the converter
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TylerK
Old 07-19-2005, 05:41 PM #5 (permalink)  
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If you're just asking about preflop,

1. Fine as a blind defense play since you know you're going to be heads-up. You're more than likely going to be in a tricky spot postflop though. Given his position his cards are going to be much better on average than if he was making this raise from the CO or button. Assuming he's not insane and all.

2. Godawful

3. Reraise
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-19-2005, 05:45 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 1) looks good, you have to check raise all undercards

2) yuck

3) reraise.


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koolmoe
Old 07-19-2005, 05:51 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 I would raise about half the time.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-19-2005, 06:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Hand 1 I would raise about half the time.
Perhaps, but you have to remember he's out of position here and he's looking for a safe board. He's going to have to lead out the flop here and fold to a raise or continue betting if against a passive opponent.


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Xanadu
Old 07-19-2005, 07:14 PM #9 (permalink)  
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In hand 1, you were correct to call because 1: the raiser was in 4th position... in that position it is more likely they have 2 high cards than a high pair ... since in over half the cases you are a slight favorite and in under half your are a big dog, you are correct to call with 3:1 odds.
2: you were the BB which gave you the odds to call.
Had the raiser been UTG this call would have been a little suspect, but not absolutely horrible. You also must be good after the flop to make this call ... if you see more than 1 card T or higher on the flop you must fold if you don't flop the set.

In hand 2, you were horribly, horribly wrong to call the preflop raise. A big difference here is you were cold calling 2 bets with no other callers. When you play a small pocket pair, you are hoping to flop a set and get paid off for it. You will flop a set a little under 12% of the time. You can expect a set to hold up and win a little over 80% of the time. This gives you at best, about a 10% win rate with your set. What this means is that you must expect to win a pot on average 10x your preflop investment when you do win with a low pp. When you are in late position and can call 1 bet with 4 limpers, this is great odds ... you can expect 6 more SB in the pot by the end of the hand. To call this hand to a raise in EP is very bad because now you need to win a pot of 20SB on average and you don't know if anyone else will stay in or not or if they might raise. It takes a special table full of fish to even think about this call.

Hand 3: This is a completely different scenario. You have a near premium hand with the tens, 2 players have limped, the raiser was in late position and you are the small blind. This is a call/raise situation. If you think you can isolate the raiser, you should reraise, as the odds are better than even he has 2 high cards and not a bigger pp. If the 2 limpers are likely to call a reraise, I would just call ... remember that you will be out of position the rest of the hand.
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koolmoe
Old 07-19-2005, 08:48 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Hand 1 I would raise about half the time.
Perhaps, but you have to remember he's out of position here and he's looking for a safe board. He's going to have to lead out the flop here and fold to a raise or continue betting if against a passive opponent.
You don't make this call unless you think you have a good chance to be ahead. I would rather discourage the raiser from continuing by occasionally representing a big hand, since a small pair gets a bigger advantage over overcards when the overcards only see three or four board cards.
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vegaas2
Old 07-21-2005, 10:07 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Well, I agree with eveyone for the most part. Hand two was a bad call, hand 3 was fine. As for hand 1, you are in a difficult position, you can make a legit arguement for calling or raising. Depending on who the other player was would have made my decision for me. If it is a player who doesnt play many hands, I would just call. If its a loose player, raise.
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Fnord
Old 07-23-2005, 01:56 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Hand 1 I would raise about half the time.
Is a 3-bet pre-flop in a fishy spot like this or a flop check/raise more likely to get respect?

On the TT hand I like a 3-bet mostly because you can face the field with 2 more cold. Otherwise I might just call here.
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