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Conflicted shark vs. nice-guy

  
 
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LockLow34
Old 11-08-2004, 02:02 PM     Post subject: Conflicted shark vs. nice-guy #1 (permalink)  
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I'm good. Not great, but I've only really been learning how to play for the last 6-8 months. I play live 4-5 times a week, and have started to regularly book a profit each week. I'm lucky in that I play in a local game with a guy who used to make a living as a pro. (aside: When he plays in the game he'll get most of the chips - one night last week he won almost $900 playing 3/6...and I still finished up 2x my buy-in. So I'm good enough to compete with him. I'll know I'm VERY good when I'm booking the $900 sessions.) He's nice enough to be very willing to teach me a lot of things. Not only that, he's very good at getting into players' heads; he used to get into mine but I've toughened up against him and it's helped me play against others who try to do the same thing.

Now the conflict. Of course, I love playing against juicy players out for a good time. However, there's a 'nice guy' part of me that feels sorry for the obvious contributors who seemingly can't help himself.

One guy, a Texan who plays in my local game, is good for $300-$400 each time he shows. His attitude is that it is a sign of weakness if you fold when you have the most remote chance to win. Some nights you can count on 1 hand the number of times he folds preflop. There are other contributors in the game as well, but he's probably the biggest.

Then this weekend at the Tropicana I was at a 4/8 hold-em table where a guy was there when I started playing about 6am. When I left the table at 8:30am (to bank a 2x buy-in profit, get breakfast and escape some loud, obnoxious players that had just arrived) he'd already put in $400. He was a terrible player who just thought the cards were against him. And during my time there I was not only cordial to him, I was doing things to encourage his poor play. I came back to the table about 10:30 and played another hour during which he put $200 more into the table. At 3pm he was STILL there - who knows how much more he'd contributed. I felt bad for him, in a way. Part of me wanted to stop him, but part of me wanted to sit in on the table since it was such easy money.

And therein lies the conflict. I know these are the players who make games profitable. But at what point does it go from just taking money from a poor player to downright abuse? This man was out of control, but he was a grown man, too (in his late 40's I guess) and apparently with the capacity to make decisions for himself. And I don't feel I have a responsibility to STOP someone like this, I just get to the point where I feel bad taking money in such a pathetic situation.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this. Any comments?
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Humphrind
Old 11-08-2004, 02:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I can understand what you are talking about.

It's like the scene from Cool Hand Luke where Paul Newman is taking the pounding of his life and he just keeps getting up. It gets to the point where his crowd, his opponent and even the audience says, "Stay Down!" But Paul Newman was brave and fearless. Your opponent is stupid and poor.

If you feel comfortable you are welcome to tell him to stop playing, he's lost enough money. But you have to be willing to back off if he tells you to. If you don't feel comfortable talking to him, but you don't want to take his money, find another table.
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AJ
Old 11-08-2004, 03:27 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Very interesting topic! I've wondered about this myself often. Sometimes, when I'm playing online and I've found a particulary fishy fish (and lord knows, there are a lot of them), I do feel like I'm on the verge of abuse sometimes.

My wife watches me play often enough to have a pretty good understanding of the difference between bad luck and really poor play. When she sees me (and others) taking advantage of a hooked fish, she typically gives me this look that says "have you no feelings?". My explanation up to this point has been that no one is making these people play and, more importantly, if I don't take their money, someone else will.

I know this is justification at it's best, but I don't know that I have a better answer.

One last comment - I have never, or will I ever, be nasty to someone who plays badly. For me, that is one step over the line.

I'd love to hear if others are at least a little conflicted over this issue.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-08-2004, 03:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Poker has natural selection too.

Either the fish will wise up and figure the game out or bust out and quit. Either way, it's not your place to be his guardian angel. Just leave him to work through it himself.

Only the strong survive.

-'rilla

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fishstick
Old 11-08-2004, 05:58 PM #5 (permalink)  
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i agree, an interesting discussion.

- first and foremost, this is a game, and if you don't play to win, what's the point?

- as in any game, there are many things a player can do to get better (read some good books, analyze their play, be active on a board like FTR, etc.). if they choose not to take advantage of the many resources that could improve their play, then so be it. they have made a choice.

i've used this example before, but it fits. i am a good, solid (not great) surfer. i am happy with where i am, so i really don't do anything to try to improve my surfing, i just go out and have fun with it. i think this is how a lot people approach poker: "i'm going to play LAggy and wild, and every once in awhile i'll hit it big!"

- i think a lot of people just consider their small losses the price of entertainment.

so don't feel bad about taking their money. if they want to attribute their losses to bad cards or bad luck, that's their business. they have made the choice to put themselves in the thick of it without adequate preparation.

and i'll respect that choice. i will also never abuse someone over their poor play - it's just rude.
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zenbitz
Old 11-08-2004, 06:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Take his money, buy him a drink.
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Fnord
Old 11-08-2004, 06:07 PM #7 (permalink)  
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This is why I don't play a lot of live poker. I'm just not a very fun guy to lose money to. Eventually the fish figure out what I'm doing to them and improve their game from horrible to just bad. Still profitable, but I'd rather keep 'em happy...
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LockLow34
Old 11-09-2004, 12:14 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Glad to see so many replies on this.

I have to say after thinking about this more, I don't really feel BAD about taking money from folks like this. Rather, I sorta wish someone who is playing this way would stop of his own accord. But as was pointed out, it isn't as though it's impossible to improve one's game. A person of full mental capacity SHOULD be able to do just that. It's just that seeing someone burning off his money at $100/hr with no shot at getting even a tiny bit of it back is pathetic, sad.

I'm sure most everyone has read Positively Fifth Street. (If not, do so, it's a neat book.) At one point the author notes that some people have a very masochistic streak...they LOOK for situations that will offer them the greatest punishment if they fail, and then do everything they can to sabotage their own success. Of course this is the path to ruin, but there are those out there who can't help themselves.

To me, a man who is putting money into a game like this has that sort of psyche. Part of me wants to tell him to stop, but part of me knows he's funding my own future success. In the end, it's the latter part that wins out.

Bring on the contributors.
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nemofromuscl
Old 11-09-2004, 03:59 AM #9 (permalink)  

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I feel the same way for the most part, but I would feel a whole lot worse if the fish wasn't just a fish, but someone who was addicted. Many people addicted to gambling are bad at it, and just won't learn how to play better. There are many people that play with money that they can't afford to lose, and it's just sad.
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AllinLife
Old 11-10-2004, 01:45 AM #10 (permalink)  
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"someone's gotta"
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nemofromuscl
Old 11-10-2004, 02:13 AM #11 (permalink)  

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Yeah I know, if you don't take that persons money somebody will. If I knew somebody was addicted to gambling and was bad it would just be a moral issue on my back I wouldnt really want.
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