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Gatorcon
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07-26-2005, 01:43 AM
Post subject: cold calling situations
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 30
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I'm just wondering if this would have been good for a cold call.
Then my post flop play.
Hand 1.
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A , Q . MP2 posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 (poster) calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls.
Flop: (8.50 SB) J, 6, T (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (5.75 BB) 6 (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.
River: (7.75 BB) A (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 9.75 BB
Raise the flop ? Raise/smooth call/fold the river ?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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I think reads are super necessary on this one.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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No read? 3-bet preflop. Raise the flop, check the turn. Raise river.
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Mony B
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07-26-2005, 05:25 AM
Post subject: agree with jeff
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#4 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 192
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You need to be aggressive in limit, dont be the one cold calling unless you know your beat, and then you should be folding. Your in great position preflop, three bet it and find out where you are, you know if you raise AK-higher pocket pairs are going to reraise if you get cold called you are prob ahead. On the flop you need to throw out a raise here as well, you might have even scared your opponents into thinking you had the flush and taken the pot down right there, if you get called so what, you still have the nut draw. I dont mind the call as much on the river, but your pretty blank on this one as to where you stand. If you had taken the aggressive route, you wouldnt need us to tell you what to do on the river....
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mdwav
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ont, Canada
Posts: 59
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elipsesjeff wrote:
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No read? 3-bet preflop. Raise Raise the flop, check the turn. Raise river.
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I would play the same way from the flop onwards, but what are your reasons for 3-betting pre-flop without a read? I'm assuming one reason to raise is to buy the button, but why else are you re-raising? Fold the BB? Get a better read on Mp1? Or do you decide to raise by process of elimination (cold call bad, folding too tight, therefore raise)? Sorry for the barrage of questions, AQ is one of the hands I struggle with pre-flop when faced with a raise.
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" Don’t misunderstand. A pro isn’t someone who sacrifices himself for his job. That’s just a fool.” - Reno
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JJDylan
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 211
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mdwav
elipsesjeff wrote:
Quote:
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No read? 3-bet preflop. Raise Raise the flop, check the turn. Raise river.
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I would play the same way from the flop onwards, but what are your reasons for 3-betting pre-flop without a read? I'm assuming one reason to raise is to buy the button, but why else are you re-raising? Fold the BB? Get a better read on Mp1? Or do you decide to raise by process of elimination (cold call bad, folding too tight, therefore raise)? Sorry for the barrage of questions, AQ is one of the hands I struggle with pre-flop when faced with a raise. |
I usually raise this for info on the original raiser...if he's got AA, KK, QQ or AK ..he's capping your ass in a second. If hes got something like AQ, KQ, JJ or TT...most likely he's just calling your 3-bet. Obviously this isnt 100%, but its a starting point for my thinking in the rest of the hand
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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This is a clear 3 bet or fold pre flop. Either 3 bet preflop and bet/raise the flop or muck it. I dont like your flop line here.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JJDylan
I usually raise this for info on the original raiser
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Thats not the reason to raise, but it is a good bi-product from doing so.
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JJDylan
I usually raise this for info on the original raiser
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Thats not the reason to raise, but it is a good bi-product from doing so. |
So what is the reason to raise pf here then?
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JJDylan
I usually raise this for info on the original raiser
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Thats not the reason to raise, but it is a good bi-product from doing so. |
So what is the reason to raise pf here then? |
Very few hands beat you right here: AA, KK, AK, QQ... you need to get your money in while you're out ahead.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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mdwav
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ont, Canada
Posts: 59
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outphase wrote:
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Very few hands beat you right here: AA, KK, AK, QQ... you need to get your money in while you're out ahead.
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JJ, TT, 99 beat us, as does any pocket pair. However, I ran some sims on twodimes, and AQ is +EV against JJ/TT/99 and a somewhat random hand (if said hand does not include an A or Q). Is that why we are raising?
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" Don’t misunderstand. A pro isn’t someone who sacrifices himself for his job. That’s just a fool.” - Reno
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JJDylan
I usually raise this for info on the original raiser
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Thats not the reason to raise, but it is a good bi-product from doing so. |
So what is the reason to raise pf here then? |
I am trying to shut out the rest of the field here. Iwant to get this head up. AQo plays poorly multi-way. MP2 wanted to see a cheap flop so he called. He doesn't have any hand that he really want to pay three bets to see a flop with. He would have to hit the flop hard in order to stay in being sandwiched inbetween two raising players. So if he does see the flop, but does not hit he will be looking for an exit out of the hand after the flop leaving you in position going into the turn.
I will sometime 3-bet this hand, sometimes I will muck it, but I don't ever cold-call with it. I'm not too excited about calling a raise from MP with it without a read of somekind. If I were to cold-call and then it got raised again behind me, you know you have to be a dog. 3-betting tells everyone else that you want this pot and they better have a big hand if they want some of it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
No read? 3-bet preflop. Raise the flop, check the turn. Raise river.
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What he said. Although, if you change one of the 6s into another card I'm just calling the river. Aces up 2nd kicker looks to be good here too often. With just a pair on a 3 broadway board I would be more inclined to just call.
Pre-flop I 3-bet to make to force the blinds to make a decision that makes me smile either way. I also want to see if MP1 feels like capping. MP2 has dogshit and I'd love for him to put more money in the pot.
On the flop we have position and a shit ton of outs ranging from the nuts, to strong to weak. If the raise isn't for pure value, checking behind on a later street (free cards on a miss or cheap showdown if an Ace or Queen hits) or buying out the pot makes for an easy raise.
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Gatorcon
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 30
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If it was suited I think I would have 3-bet but being off-suit I found myself thinking it was not worth the 3-bet, but not bad enough to fold.
Now after seeing the results I wonder if the 3-bet would have chased the BB out pre-flop.
Results in white below:
BB has 3h 7h (flush, jack high).
Hero has Ah Qd (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 9.75 BB.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatorcon
If it was suited I think I would have 3-bet but being off-suit I found myself thinking it was not worth the 3-bet, but not bad enough to fold.
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WTF?!?!? Why would you not think you have the best hand here like 75% of the time? Also, consider that the button can cold call pocket pairs and probably show a profit if you just cold call along. Losing the button hurts the value of your holding. In addition to the big blind being able to profitably call with crap like that.
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Strung
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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Fnord, are you saying that you play AQo against a raise all the time? If you were to play AQo the 3-bet would definately be the play but I was under the assumption that AQo should usually be mucked and AQs taken for the 3-bet play.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
Fnord, are you saying that you play AQo against a raise all the time? If you were to play AQo the 3-bet would definately be the play but I was under the assumption that AQo should usually be mucked and AQs taken for the 3-bet play.
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I personally almost always treat AQo and AQs as a 3-bet or fold situation, but I've heard the following argument re: playing AQo vs. AQs to a raise. I'm curious what you all think of it.
You should be more inclined to 3-bet or muck AQo (to a tight raise) since it doesn't play well in a multi-way pots. With AQs, you should change it up between playing it as if you had AQo (i.e. 3-bet or muck (to a tight raiser)), and just calling to invite other (weaker) players with worse hands to enter the pot.
Also, if its a valid argument, what % of the time do you think should you be 3-betting AQs and how often should you be just cold calling?
Mike Caro is always talking about how you should take into account the specific players you are eliminating or inviting to come along in your decision on how to play the hand pre-flop. I'd be inclined to add that to the decision too.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
Fnord, are you saying that you play AQo against a raise all the time?
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I three bet it EVERY time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
Fnord, are you saying that you play AQo against a raise all the time?
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I laydown AQo to a single raise every now and then. In this situation, I didn't see a strong enough read on the original raiser, also with the poster defending there is some extra money in the pot from a likely weak hand.
If I'm playing here, a 3-bet is the way to go for reasons I mentioned.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty silly to assume MP1 has a monster hand without a read. I'm open raising a whole lot of junk that's worse than AQo from here, and my PFR is only in the 8-10% range.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty silly to assume MP1 has a monster hand without a read.
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It's pretty darn weak. Not playing your hand to win just makes things worse.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatorcon
If it was suited I think I would have 3-bet but being off-suit I found myself thinking it was not worth the 3-bet, but not bad enough to fold.
Now after seeing the results I wonder if the 3-bet would have chased the BB out pre-flop.
Results in white below:
BB has 3h 7h (flush, jack high).
Hero has Ah Qd (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 9.75 BB.
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there is almost no difference between AQo and AQs, the suited hand is slightly better, but not by much, so both hands should be played alike preflop... 3-bet that mutha out.
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