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kyc12
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08-09-2006, 03:01 AM
Post subject: Clear fold with KK?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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You hold KK at UTG+1
UTG limp, you raise, 4 call (CO, SB,BB,UTG)
Flop comes AQ2 rainbow. Clearly check/fold?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Not necessarily. Without doing pot math, you probably have odds to see a turn.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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v. good point!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Insert stock LHE response here:
it depends....
OK, this is a long winded response but I have been giving this topic MUCH thought lately...b/c of this I would like to here what guys like eupho, jeff, midas, and the other guys think about these conclusions. I feel I have covered many possible situations here...
If UTG somehow donk bets it into you, you could raise here, and buy your 2 outs back. It would really suck to call this flop, hit your turn, and lose to someone holding J10. If you are going to take this hand to the end you might as well give yourself the best chance at winning if you connect or if no one holds an ace. The only time this raise will work is if the bet comes directly from your right. This can also buy you a free card on the turn if you get folds behind you and UTG smooth calls. If UTG takes one off, then you could as well. However, if checked to I would probably lead one more time, cannot give these donks free shots at gutshots and weak 2 pairs.
Continuing on...
Now, if UTG checks it to you, what does a bet really do here? There will now be 11SB with your flop bet, which means now no matter what, you cannot make your opponents make a poor decision. Getting 11-1 instant odds they can call w/ just about anything and be correct. You have to capatilize on their mistakes. If you have a small edge on the flop I would not exploit it here, it would be much better to exploit this edge on the turn for 1BB than on the flop for 1SB.
Now, your opponents will expect you to lead since you raised PF. If you check here they may take one off, afraid of your c/r. If you check and they lead, and there was one cold caller in between I would prolly lay this hand down. Now, if the player to your left leads and everyone calls it back to you, then you have 14-1 instant odds to hit your set, which, with implied odds is certainly enough. If you spike a King you certainly be able to get more bets out of your opponents. However, like stated before, your set is easily counterfeited by J10, which is right to call a flop bet here, but not coldcall two.
One final possibility is that of the passive table check down. You could be up against a weak passive player with a small ace. This type of player would typically just check down their ace and you could lose very little in this pot. If you are up against these type of players I would just check the hand down b/c they are just going to check/call you out of 2.5BBs. If you do decide to lead at this flop and you are called and overcalled by these opponents I would shut it down, you are probably behind. The thing to watch out here is for a more aggressive player to lead at the turn. This turn lead does not mean an ace, in fact, had this aggressive player had an ace he/she would have let at the flop after your check. No, this probably means a Queen or other pair.
You know, the more I look at these type of hands the more I like LHE, I mean there are so many possiblities. If this was a NLHE hand the decision would be quite simple, CBET 2/3 of the pot, get raised, and lay it down. But in LHE, the game is so creative, there is so much play involved.
So what to do? That's your choice, you should sit back and analyze each possible situation and determine for yourself what you think is the best play. This has to be one of the toughest decisions that you will see every single day, and every situation will be different. Assess the situation and make the right decision for each individual occurrence.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I probably just bet and keep betting until raised, then redecide. If it is HU i'll see a showdown but I won't overcall a turn card. Reads help too if there is a maniac but there is a strong possibility they are just afraid of that Ace as you are. Bet!
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Aye. I bet the flop every time, if raised, I call and hope to spike a turn. Generally done there, barring any redraws, reads, etc etc etc. Particularly true at lower limits, when any A is played.
I love when the super nits on my left cold call my raises and then raise the flop when the A hits. They're never bluffing, never buying a free card, and always have a hand. It makes for very easy turn decisions.
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Now, if the player to your left leads and everyone calls it back to you, then you have 14-1 instant odds to hit your set, which, with implied odds is certainly enough. If you spike a King you certainly be able to get more bets out of your opponents. However, like stated before, your set is easily counterfeited by J10, which is right to call a flop bet here, but not coldcall two.
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Don't over-estimate the power of implied odds. You are 22.5-1 to hit your K on the turn, so you need to on average make another 5 BB on the turn and river. No doubt with 4 loose opponents this is possible, but with a board AQ2K you are not guaranteed that your set will win against 4 opponents. When calculating outs and implied odds you must consider firstly that you could be behind to JT and secondly how vulnerable your hand is to redraws. In this case any J or T on the river would be horrible. To compensate you would need to win on average at least 6BB on the turn and river when your set holds up.
Anyway this is just an aside, as I would have bet the flop 
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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4 cold calls to my pf raise, an Ace flops, and I'm going to fight for this pot? With a lot of luck, after I ***CHECK***, everyone else will get nervous and check, I'll catch one of my 2 outs, and not get hammered by JT or a redraw.
We missed the flop. Brutally. Taking the lead here is bad poker.
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