Chop's op's..

wanted to make a small effort tonight since i posted this thread.

played about 100 hands of 6max at cake. traffic blew so i played one 25/50c and one (are you ready?) 04./08c table. i rarely play more than two because i am still trying to watch intently, as i think it really helps get an extra bet or two per 100 hands. three just doesnt allow me to pay as close attention just yet, but i am working on it.

made $3...woohoo. but, i sat next to a huge donk. this guy was on my immediate left and 3bet every hand i raised. he bluffed his ass off more than once. so, i never folded Ahi+ when HU. he spewed me more than $3. i ran ok on that table, he spewed, and i ran like dog crap at the 04/08c table. lol.

i should have stuck around, but i am tired. and, dont expect HHs from cake all that often, as they are a bitch to find/post. i'm there for the juiciest rakeback known to an american player.

po (peace-out)

valuebetting, overplaying, stupid slowplays, giving too much credit for hands, semibluffing call stations.

I read this list and laughed to myself a bit, these are all postflop leaks!!! I'd worry less about these until you get preflop taken care of, once you do that then we can work on postflop.

In fact, you can break down those weaknesses to play by street instead of grouping them together.

It seems like the river is your worst street right now but I think if you were to go into more depth on where you have problems I can help you out some more.

River:

-Valuebetting
-Overplaying
-Giving too much credit for hands?

Turn:

-Semi-Bluffing Calling Stations

Flop:
-Slow playing

Semibluffing the flop usually isn't -EV as long as you have 33% equity, which is why I didn't include it there. I think the easiest (theoretically) to fix is the slow playing and value betting (but VB is the harder to apply). I'm a bit confused need more explanation on the others.

Nice post, i should do one too, i'll try to do a 2nd vid to fire up the place!
Most of those leaks are common to most of us at one point or another, it'll be good to see all responses and other ppls opinions.
Cheers Chop!

another quick session, as i dont have much time to play lately. but, finished up another $9ish or so.

beautiful thing, though....cake rakeback is over $27 in just 2400 hands played this month. i'll take that.

i am trying to pay attention to goofy hands that pop up, but i didnt see any tonight, either. fairly standard. hit a flush from the sb with crappy suited cards...standard. iso3bet the hell out of a LAGtard i have notes on, and schooled him until he left...standard. never hit anything against him...lol...just never folded. he hit one pot and gave me 3. that bluffy bastard . kind of like watching myself in reverse. but, like i said, that is changing...

till next time,
po

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

valuebetting, overplaying, stupid slowplays, giving too much credit for hands, semibluffing call stations.

I read this list and laughed to myself a bit, these are all postflop leaks!!!

i didnt understand this too much. i thought you were asking for post flop leaks earlier, too. and, preflop, from what i've read is important (as we've discussed), but no doubt the post flop stuff is what gets you killed. preflop just puts the ball on the tee, but if you still hit it into the woods, you're still screwed. preflop may even put you in the fairway, but if you dunk one in a lake, its the post flop that still racked your score up. (maybe not the best golf analogy, but with time i can make that better).

anyway, just got off my only decent length session of the week. and, i finished up about 30 bb's. i'll take it. 3 in a row...lol. but, it wasnt w/o a headscratcher or two. so, here are a couple synopses for you to help me with. well, the 2nd is more of a bitch, but i tried to turn it into a question about ranges and adjusting them...

ONE..i have A7s on btn with a limper in front and loose blinds. good spot to raise pre, usually, but this time i limp behind.

pick up flush draw on flop. and, SB leads, but BB raises. pot is $1.50 to me and i need to call $.50 cold while SB may RR. do i have enough odds, implied or otherwise, to make this call?

TWO..here's one that gets me..i am UTG and accidentally post. i check and flop comes monotone clubs three way. i have Tc6h. BB leads, i raise. fool calls two cold on that board. i figure him for a higher club. turn is Qs. all check around? river is Th. BB checks. i lead out. and fool calls with a 9s6s???? this is the retardedness i put up with. i rarely know where i stand. who calls two cold on a mono flop with top pair of a 9 and no kicker AND no club? wow. granted, my play wasnt stellar, but these are the idiots laying the suckouts on me right and left. any ideas to tackle this when there are three to four of them at every table. schooling affect big time. i guess you will repeat to never bluff and valuebet the shit out of them...and take the variance. but, how much do i widen my pf range or tighten it up? how much should i be raising, since it seems to bloat pots and force people to play correctly even when they dont know they are?

I was just saying you didn't include anything from preflop, not that I didn't want postflop :P

Preflops are more math based than postflop and for that matter aren't as difficult to solve.

Originally Posted by Chopper

ONE..i have A7s on btn with a limper in front and loose blinds. good spot to raise pre, usually, but this time i limp behind.

pick up flush draw on flop. and, SB leads, but BB raises. pot is $1.50 to me and i need to call $.50 cold while SB may RR. do i have enough odds, implied or otherwise, to make this call?

TWO..here's one that gets me..i am UTG and accidentally post. i check and flop comes monotone clubs three way. i have Tc6h. BB leads, i raise. fool calls two cold on that board. i figure him for a higher club. turn is Qs. all check around? river is Th. BB checks. i lead out. and fool calls with a 9s6s???? this is the retardedness i put up with. i rarely know where i stand. who calls two cold on a mono flop with top pair of a 9 and no kicker AND no club? wow. granted, my play wasnt stellar, but these are the idiots laying the suckouts on me right and left. any ideas to tackle this when there are three to four of them at every table. schooling affect big time. i guess you will repeat to never bluff and valuebet the shit out of them...and take the variance. but, how much do i widen my pf range or tighten it up? how much should i be raising, since it seems to bloat pots and force people to play correctly even when they dont know they are?

1. What is the board? Is the board paired? Do you think your ace outs are clean? I don't think calling is an option most of the time. It's either raise or fold. Depends on board and reads.
I tend to raise in 6max possibly getting SB out, cleaning outs, buying a free card, showing aggression...

2. That's a very broad question...
In loose games follow what you said (bluff none, semibluff little -mostly to get free cards-, and valuebet anything)
Identify the fish and try to isolate them in position. Raise wider for value preflop, especially in position, but be ready to let go of hands when whiffed and they come alive. Calculate odds every hand and be more liberal counting "clean" outs when drawing. Make protection raises according to position in multiway pots to charge those chasers and try to thin the field, many times you may want to wait for turn to protect/raise.
Consider what are usually "dominated" hands as probably "non-dominated" (i.e. KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, AT...) against those players, so top pair medium kicker is probably not so much a WA/WB situation, more likely you are WA.
in limped pots, be very liberal completing SB (almost any 2). Hit? bet the shit out of them. Get a draw? draw with good odds. c/f when whiffed.

one..board had one paint on it. i had an overcard A, probably 75% clean. people limp AX all the time, and i've seen AQ limp. but, its not often. not too connected, either. say...Qs 8c 5s -ish. i didnt like calling two cold, either. but, i couldnt find any legitimacy in 3betting that to definitely drive out customers i need.

two..hell, isolation rarely seems to work down here with all the cold calling. i like to raise hands like KTs, QJs, A8s, maybe KJo. but, i like doing it with limpers already in to sort of build a post flop pot...and for equity. but, does that equity do us much good if we still take a flop 4 handed and simply betting when checked to doesnt do anything to protect our hand? all it seems to do is avoid free cards...which is probably reason enough to lead out. i remember you guys saying to take the flop off and wait for a safer turn. i just dont like that, either, because players seem to pick up draws on turns, and they are still getting 4:1 because the whole pot was bloated by all the cold calling pre and the flop betting. (sounds like heaven, but it leads to Q6 rivering your AQ with the damned 6, or the gutters hitting, or runner runner crap).

letting go of whiffed hands would be like...i raise KJs and board comes Q 8 5 r only to see someone lead into me? or A9s when the flop delivers Q J 5 two suited, but not mine? because cbetting all but the driest of boards is bordering on spew.

lowering the WA/WB situation is a great tip! i like that because i am tighter, i rarely have kicker problems. i get two-paired a lot, but i dont mind that so much because i know they made a bad decision in the first place to call down with Q7.

SB is about my favorite spot, to be honest. i love pissing them off with 93s and the flush. but, i dont do it unless i have 2+ limpers. i dont like those hands 3way. mistake? i also raise any A if the btn limps. i dont care if the BB comes in, too. i want that stupid btn to pay. seems to work.

thanks. i really haven't got much to complain about. i beat that site quite easily. i just see them as SO bad, i want to beat them worse. and, therefore, i am always looking for the "ideal" style for these stakes.

Originally Posted by Chopper

one..board had one paint on it. i had an overcard A, probably 75% clean. people limp AX all the time, and i've seen AQ limp. but, its not often. not too connected, either. say...Qs 8c 5s -ish. i didnt like calling two cold, either. but, i couldnt find any legitimacy in 3betting that to definitely drive out customers i need.

Definitely raise. I don't think you will get any folds, and bloating the pot in this situation is very good for you. Plus you will probably get a free card on the turn. Equity of your hand should be around 33+%. So really, on the flop, you are raising for value. If turn doesnt help, then your equity goes down a lot and you should take the passive route.

Originally Posted by Chopper

two..hell, isolation rarely seems to work down here with all the cold calling. i like to raise hands like KTs, QJs, A8s, maybe KJo. but, i like doing it with limpers already in to sort of build a post flop pot...and for equity. but, does that equity do us much good if we still take a flop 4 handed and simply betting when checked to doesnt do anything to protect our hand? all it seems to do is avoid free cards...which is probably reason enough to lead out. i remember you guys saying to take the flop off and wait for a safer turn. i just dont like that, either, because players seem to pick up draws on turns, and they are still getting 4:1 because the whole pot was bloated by all the cold calling pre and the flop betting. (sounds like heaven, but it leads to Q6 rivering your AQ with the damned 6, or the gutters hitting, or runner runner crap).

Well, suckouts will happen. But the only way you have to decrease them is by protecting well. If people call two cold on turn trying to hit 3outs, that's great, you will win a big pot 90% of the time, and they will win it 10%. That's a great proposition!

Regarding isolation PF, same thing. If your hand rates to win against villain's hand 70% of the time, you want him to put as many moneys as possible PF in the pot and try to get heads up with him.
If you get 3 customers with crap hands, even if your equity goes down to 33%. That's still an 8% edge vs an average hand that would have 25% (4players * 25% = 100%), and an even bigger edge against all their crap hands. But you have to keep in mind that even though you have a big equity edge, you will lose 67% of the time. You shouldn't care too much, cause on average you will win more times than them, plus your postflop edge against those donkeys also counts.

Originally Posted by Chopper

letting go of whiffed hands would be like...i raise KJs and board comes Q 8 5 r only to see someone lead into me? or A9s when the flop delivers Q J 5 two suited, but not mine? because cbetting all but the driest of boards is bordering on spew.

Yeah. What i like to do on the flop if whiffed, especially if heads-up, is ask myself the questions:
"Is it still possible/probable that i still have the best hand?"
"Do i have outs, ways to improve my equity?"

If the answers are "yes" i will lead, if it is "no" i will c/f.

Originally Posted by Chopper

SB is about my favorite spot, to be honest. i love pissing them off with 93s and the flush. but, i dont do it unless i have 2+ limpers. i dont like those hands 3way. mistake?

Not really, it depends on the kind of "trashy hand" that you have. Suited and somewhat connected hands are playable with two limpers. Any SCs and suited 1gappers with 1limper (also bigger offsuit connectors like JT, T9 and 98).
But you really need more limpers to play any 2.
Notice that with 5+ limpers you should play really any2 (even 72o) as you will flop 2pair or better 3-4% of the time and are getting at least 13-1 on your money plus some decent implied odds (it being a multiway pot).
You do need some postflop skills when flopping something like middle pair or a weak top pair, but still... you can just c/fold them and only play with bigger flopped hands/draws.
When playing the SB, we should always consider that in limped pots, we are getting 2x the implied odds of any hand, since we only pay half a bet to see the flop.

WARNING:
Always consider that the BB could raise throwing away all our expectations. A good read on BB is very nice to do all the above.

one..i have been looking for "other things" so often lately, i forgot to notice the biggest fundamental..."if you have more equity than players, RAISE!" and, this was it. 3 players, and i likely have 33%+. thanks. i totally missed that one, and thought i was jamming with Ahi and a non-made hand when definitely behind. darn it.

two..thanks for the explanation. i need to remind myself of these things often...or, as you see, i will get stuck asking the same (basic) questions over and over. i feel i protect well because i am always looking for reasons to do so. but, when no one ahead of me bets, its hard to make them play incorrectly, and thats the frustrating part. its like live low stakes LHE. no one raises, but no one folds, either.

again, pstove will help me some more in figuring how much to open up in these situations. when its 4way, i only need more than 25% to ram the shit out of it pf. and, 3way, 33%. the question, again, is will they allow it by raising also. and, when they do, how tight is THEIR raising range. obv, things you guys cant answer. i'm just talking to myself right now.

the losing 67% of the time, and the idea you keep mentioning in your vid review thread is: "it only has to work 1 in 10 to be profitable." we/i keep losing sight of that. i feel that if i lose 3/5 times, i am sucking. the truth is i may still be making money in those situations...lol.

i have already started playing complete trash in family pots from the SB. its hard to make myself do it, but i do see the odds i am getting.

however, if i complete, and BB raises, can i really fold T6o when it comes back around still as a family pot? i suppose my odds arent really as good because now its 9:1-11:1 instead of 13+:1. but, i also have reason to believe somebody has something, too. that should further devalue my trash a bit, yes?

ps, didnt play last night. i will give a numbers summary of the month in a week or so. but, if things dont go all to hell, it'll still be up a good bit. these basic questions are to keep hammering concepts into my head so i dont forget, as i obviously do forget...lol. i just tend to work on fancier concepts at the expense of some of the basics at times.

micro lunch session. up $4.

i had a KJs hand that i raised. villain oop calls me after limping. i flop top KJ8r. he leads, i raise, he 3bets, i cap. i dont see a lot of capping flops here, so i get a little wary (this is prolly another post flop leak, jeff...lol). turn is A. i stop and immediately notice QT, but think QT may open raise and may not be there. but, sets? not KK or JJ, though. he leads, i raise, he 3bets, i only call? i cant see much worse going ballistic like this. river is brick. he checks, i bet (and know i have him now and missed a cap on the damned turn). if he had much, he would have led again, knowing i would raise. i knew EXACTLY what he held. J8s. and, yes, thats what he had.

but, should i have capped turn? against standard villains that are only 3betting/capping nut hands, is this right? it could have been another two pair with the A or a set or possibly QT. was i right in backing off when he 3bet me?

he didnt overplay another hand in the next four orbits i was there, either. so, i guess what i am asking is: when we hit top two on a relatively dry board against unknown villains at a limit where caps mean super nuts, do we still cap all streets and take the suckout? is top two that strong in 6max? i think if villain keeps pushing, at some point we need to evaluate the board and slow down a bit. amirong??

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, should i have capped turn? against standard villains that are only 3betting/capping nut hands, is this right? it could have been another two pair with the A or a set or possibly QT. was i right in backing off when he 3bet me?

Without reads, i wouldn't have played it any other way.

Originally Posted by Chopper

he didnt overplay another hand in the next four orbits i was there, either. so, i guess what i am asking is: when we hit top two on a relatively dry board against unknown villains at a limit where caps mean super nuts, do we still cap all streets and take the suckout? is top two that strong in 6max? i think if villain keeps pushing, at some point we need to evaluate the board and slow down a bit. amirong??

No, you're right. When that happens it turns the situation into a WA/WB.
Does he have a set? or a worse 2pair?
Reads will help with that, capping against ultra-aggros, pushing all breaks against tighties-passives.

i went back to the dirty side last night and played some NL. lol. my LHE game, as always, really gives me a burst of winnings on the NL tables.

i sat in with my friend, pythonic, on some 6max 5NL tables. usually, i spew down there because i am just trying to screw with him a bit. but, last night i tried to stay disciplined and play my best.

finished up $27 over 550 hands, AND stacked my boy in the process on one of the toughest calls i had to make all night. he tends to only stack off with the nuts, but i also know he is capable of bluffing, too, especially against me. here's the hand, fwiw...

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.11)
UTG+1 ($3.30)
CO PYTHONIC ($8.10)
Hero ($11.99)
SB ($3.81)
BB ($4.89)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, CO raises to $0.25, Hero raises to $0.80, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls $0.55

Flop: ($1.72, 2 players)
CO bets $1.10, Hero raises to $2.50, CO goes all-in $7.30, Hero calls $4.80

Turn: ($16.32, 2 players)

River: ($16.32, 2 players)

Final Pot: $16.32
CO shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $15.52 ( won +$7.42 )
UTG+1 lost -$0.05
CO lost -$8.10

not much in the way of hands to show. but, i have really been bouncing over the stakes/games the last two days.

i am rolled for 2/4 LHE and somewhere between 50 and 100NL, but refuse to move up....partially not used to the money...partially i'm a br nit. but, whatever.

i played well, but didnt show well yesterday. down about $20 because 50/1 FR killed me while i was trying to jack up the RB. i sat on three of those tables, and one 25/50c table. the 25/50, i doubled through with good cards/situations rather easily. but, ran two bad bluffs and got caught with my pants down on the 50/1's.

i also nitted up some 4NL and 10NL FR while waiting for some LHE's to open. doubled through about 3 times on those. it was a nice feeling to trap some donkeys with good flops. one chump three bet A4s twice. i caught him the second time when i 3bet him with J9s HU in position and hit a 9 hi flop. he felted the 4 as bottom pair. i said, thank you. it was rather loose on my part, but i was rather short at the time, and the sizing just pulled us both in since the 9 was still TP on the river. i was worried about TT+, but knew he would likely have popped me if he had something like that.

we'll have to check the RB and see what we generated to overcome the poor-ish day. but, again, i know when i play well and things just dont fall into place. this was one of those days for sure.

nothing spectacular to report. spent most of the day house hunting, but still logged some hands. mixture again from FRLHE to NL..no money swung into or out of my pockets...lol. three days left in month..and till i post some content, unless i think of something first. end of month i plan a graph of winnings, stats on RB, and maybe a total bankroll update.

on bright side, i am setting a personal record for RB this month. sitting on about $35 from mostly 25/50c 6max LHE play. cant beat that. god bless RB.

till tomorrow...for now, its bedtime.

playing a lot of FR LHE lately. trying to apply Stox and Miller's ranges and play tactics. also trying to get "live ready" for when a buddy comes to town in a couple months. so, playing super low stakes where they play "no foldem holdem."

seems at low stakes they call any bet, but not two...however, they dont ever raise w/o the nuts themselves. not as tough a nut to crack as i originally thought. just play alot of big multiway type hands to a limp, raise all your premiums, open your raising range when the hand is getting short-handed, watch WHO you can pick on and when, and valuebet the shit out of them while you arent bluffing w/o 8+ outs.

i am running about 30/12/1.8 right now. i am not winning many pots. but, the ones i do win are doozies for sure.

since i've been playing at super low stakes, i've been at stars more often. i may post some hands shortly. stay tuned...

wow. what a horrid short session. and, at 5/10c no less. i couldnt catch a cold. and, one hand i hit a straight in a big pot only to get flushed on the river by a noted chaser. i actually made proper folds that looked against odds, but based on reads they were pretty big laydowns. that, of course, is easier to do when you are running this cold, as you can predict the river card that fucks you before it gets dealt. but, watching showdowns, they were all correct. so, the session could have been worse. oh well.

here's a pic of it because i just love wallowing in the misery...for the next 5 minutes.

oh, look at the sweet-ass W$SD and W$WSF stats. well, at least i didnt pay any rake...lol.

[img][/img]

Ouch chopper Why play so low though, is it even possible to win down there at FR? I'd assume that nobody folds and there are at least 5 players at every showdown.

LOL at 15% W$WSF

Originally Posted by kettleofish

Ouch chopper :( Why play so low though, is it even possible to win down there at FR? I'd assume that nobody folds and there are at least 5 players at every showdown.

LOL at 15% W$WSF :lol:

Are you joking me? I've ran 20 BB/100 in a game like this over 5K hands or something ridiculous

making huge hands and getting them paid off = awesome

Ya that's pretty insane. I just assumed that w/ no-one folding ur 1 pair hands would get bested by stupidity more often than not. Negative thinking FTW

Originally Posted by kettleofish

Ya that's pretty insane. I just assumed that w/ no-one folding ur 1 pair hands would get bested by stupidity more often than not. Negative thinking FTW

it sure feels like it sometimes. but, i dont usually play much higher anyway. i usually am at 25/50c or 50/1 with a bit of 1/2 sprinkled in.

i am down here for a specific reason lately: this is exactly the shit i see at a boat when i go play there. and, i want to prove to myself i can beat both the players and the 10% rake...long term.

if i can beat both, it gives me confidence to go to the boat more often where i can handle the stupidity a bit better live. because i tend to cuss at my computer, or call them donkeys, or just roll my eyes at the river card when it screws me over. all bad at a live table.

i call it "penny prep." in fact, just the other day i won at a 15/100 over 800 hands where i was 44% W$SD. lol.

oh, and per iopq's thinking, i LOVE to just crush the games on occasion...not just beat them for a 1.5/100 or whatever.

good for the confidence, too.

444 hand session at FR 05/10c. ran super cold. 20% vpip, fwiw. however, won 62% of SD's, so i posted a 6+/100 session.

no money, but the winrate felt good. but, DAMN, that was a cold deck.

i dont know about any of you guys, but i cant just play the same discipline for month after month without getting bored. when i get bored, i get tilty. i need to reinfuse some "fear factor" of a game i havent played in awhile...to make me concentrate.

so, lately, i've been playing some 2NL 6max, as a challenge, with a friend. we are challenging a theory: Can you never raise pf with 50 bb's and still show profit over a 5k sample? really, just trying to prove how bad players are down there...and that any "style" should win if you can play decently post flop.

but, i gotta tell ya...after playing normally (and running a 17 through about 4k hands) its hard to just stop raising pre. of course, its dumb, but its also a change of pace.

another thing i've wanted to do was play a session of superLAG. but, down here, you just dont have enough FE to make it worth it. same with shortstacking.

basically, these are fun ways to play...just mixing it up. and, if you take mental notes and LEARN from the way you are playing, it will come in handy in some other discipline/situation. if you always play the same game, the same way, you never grow as a player. you have to get out of your comfort zone, occasionally, and learn some new things...by making mistakes. its amazing what you discover by "accident."

and, most of these ideas come straight from Negreanu (who tilted purposely on fridays) or Lindgren (who played LAG once a week to learn when the tables adjusted on him) and how to react).

we'll gring it back up soon enough.

I've donked off 40 dollars playing lag in NL10
then I excluded those hands from my poker tracker database

yeah, i dont know how much FE you have even there. the games have changed a bit from when i got started. i used to crush 10NL for a 12/100 running 20/10/2. but, now, i dont know. 25NL i used to beat for about an 8. and i was a winner at 100NL when playing tighter and chasing bonus money. now, i dont think i would stand a chance at 100NL.

however, i feel better about my LHE game. i feel i could move up several levels, with some work, to about 2/4. and, i feel that with RB, it would be immensely profitable. so, thats the track i'm on. i just cant play the same game ALL the time. i have to revisit the donkey pool for a bit to get some aggression out of my system...prolly always will.

something i have gotten away from this summer, due to time constraints, is studying MY database. i used to replay HHs and put players on ranges, then, work them through pokerstove and check to make sure i was ahead of the RANGE. then, i would make a more isolated "read"/guess, and see if i was still best. i would count combos of holdings and, if ahead, make the play. it really helped. but, now, i just jam what little i can in the way of hands, and i have reverted back to "not as great." oh well. maybe thats a goal to work on.

i just really enjoy stomping people into the ground and laughing at my computer. i'm weak. it makes me feel better about myself. (hehe, but, at least i can admit it)

prolly time to get cranked up again on a more serious side.

lately, i have really dabbled around. from uber small NL games to my live play prep stuff, i have discovered a couple of things.

1- i am sick of the micros and need to restart my climb out of them.
2- i havent been getting my normal rakeback...disappointing.
3- my flop play in LHE is highly suspect.

i think i am still a winner, even a couple levels higher, which is NOT a brag of any sort...just a statement of how bad my company is.

took yesterday off and plan to get "back on the horse" in a day or two.

i still have to prep a bit, imo. i will likely be playing NL live, since my buddy is a LHE puss. but, whatev.

what levels emulate 1/2 live the best? my assumption is that 10NL these days is a bit too aggro. so, 5? maybe 2? i need to see 6-7X standard open-raises, and if limped, i need to see 4-5 way limped pots. problem is i dont see online play do that anymore on a regular basis.

i also need to see everyone call flop bets, miss their sizing horribly when THEY bet, and showdown weak crap, but minraise and minbet too often.

plan is horrible for NL because i dont have the roll for 1/2 NL. but, i dont mind donking off a BI or two if i give it the college try at 50 bb's a pop. i have enough confidence in my shorter play to realize i have the edge, when i play tight and make my decisions easier, but i dont like playing short when i probably have an edge deep, too. the bankroll just wont let me do it.

any suggestions to levels online for practice, or what to do about the bankroll issue? because its unlikely i will avoid going...lol. i just figure if i can get the advantage for an easy double up, i can play with the table's money and go back to my deep game. that should limit the risk since i'll get 2 shots for the price of one.

It depends a lot on the makeup of the live 1/2 NL table, but I'd guess that 25NL is probably about right. There will be a few nitty and passive players with a good number of donks.

hard to get in here to update, like i said i would, when i havent been playing a lot of LHE.

but, i did sit with an FTR'r on some 1/2 tables and promptly got killed due to variance. i had two pair rivered by a flush. i had a set, on a monotone board, rivered by the four-flush. and, of course, i had aces craaaaacked.

no biggie, i didnt do much wrong in those hands.

i also played some .50/1 the other night. quickly doubled up on a table when i had another 2 pr hold, AA take a huge pot from chasing bastards, and i tilted the table with a 79s CO raise where the blind 3bet me and i smoked him with a flop of 2 pair on a rainbow board...lol.

all in all, not much else to update, unless we want to see anything of NL variety. i have been all over the place there, too. i think running about an 7/100 across the levels ranging from 2NL to 10NL, fr and 6max. i have bought in short, and have bought in deep.

which, actually, brings up a point that i may try at a later date. if i made a serious run in NL for a bit, i may bounce between deep stacked and short stacked play. imagine if anyone is taking notes and has no idea if i will be a shove monkey or more abc?

must post this really fast, then its off to the NL challenge (tee time: sept 1st) i just pimped with my buddy Pythonic. more on that later. but, this is mostly for you, aspdikas...

i just crammed in a quick donk session at 2, .50/1 tables and 1, 1/2 table like we talked about. i finally caught some serious fire, too. no brilliant play by me, if fact, one seriously stupid flop bet where i likely am rarely ahead (i'll describe it in a minute). but, everything went as right as went wrong the other day. got it all back in one quickie...plus RB, biotches. doubled up on the 1/2 and one of the .50/1 tables. so, i pocketed a quick $60. i'll take it.

to that crappy hand...

i pick up JJ in MP. i raise after a limper. get a two callers from lp and the blind and limper call. flop comes A 7 4 two diamonds. a limper leads, i promptly raise (i figure i would be doing well to narrow it a bit to increase my chances). all fold, but the limper...who 3bets. i call and know i'm dead to an A. however, i wasnt watching his stack very well and he only had another .50 behind (the dumbass). so, the next street was inconsequential. he led, i called. he flipped the A over and took the pot.

i was planning to fold the turn, but called since he had squat. but, assuming he's deeper and i have no read....arent i dead in the water almost all the time after that 3bet? it has to be a rare fellow that b/3bets a draw oop, yes? so, its a fairly safe turn fold against our standard villains?

running another prop with a friend, and we are competing for pride at 2NL 6max...for kicks.

those players suck so hard!!! we are both over our first 2k hands and are both over a 23/100 ptbb. and, we arent particularly hot. but, we definitely arent cold, either.

i got called down when i had trip Q's by a guy when i bet three streets hard. i pushed the river. he snap-called with 85o for 8hi! i dont think this even qualifies as poker.

i could really use some replies here guys, as to my "revelation" today...


and, bb/100 took one helluva hit today with KK getting cracked. then, tilting another KK hand off. the 99 overpair getting drawn out on, AA stealing blinds 4 times, and, the QQ getting killed on a river bomb after the money went in by AK that couldnt find a fold into stiff betting (not that i wanted him to fold long term).

we are now single digits in ptbb/100. but, we'll come back. only 2660 hands into the 2NL prop contest. maybe some limit will get me back on track...tends to do that.

REVELATION: i think i get impatient when i've been playing a longer session(s). i get stack happy, and a bit tilty. i start stealing too many blinds and getting myself in shitty spots to where the only way to win the hand is to "bluff and pray." however, the best play is to really just fold and minimize losses.

its something i used to be much better at doing. for some reason, the more i have learned about poker, the more i have quite possibly regressed?

hmmmm. this may require some work. hopefully, someone feels my pain, too.

revalation II: be careful when you drop WAY below your normal stakes in the name of "ego contests." you may not respect the money and only crush yourself in the process. hmmmmmm...maybe the last silly contest for awhile, too.

Originally Posted by Chopper

REVELATION: i think i get impatient when i've been playing a longer session(s). i get stack happy, and a bit tilty. i start stealing too many blinds and getting myself in shitty spots to where the only way to win the hand is to "bluff and pray." however, the best play is to really just fold and minimize losses.

its something i used to be much better at doing. for some reason, the more i have learned about poker, the more i have quite possibly regressed?

hmmmm. this may require some work. hopefully, someone feels my pain, too.

revalation II: be careful when you drop WAY below your normal stakes in the name of "ego contests." you may not respect the money and only crush yourself in the process. hmmmmmm...maybe the last silly contest for awhile, too.

The trouble with learning too much poker is not realizing when your opponents dont know that much. So you may end up playing a great lag style, but the stations kill you even though you repped that flush perfectly, or you play taggy and tilt when they suck out on you after you've folded 80 hands in a row and they push allin with 22 to your obvious AA utg raise. I guess that extra knowledge has to be adapted to your opponents, and it may be hard not to try and use it even though it may be clear the best strategy in a certain game is just str8forward ABCDEFG...

I've suffered from that playing live with my friends. I killed them playing str8forward tight ABC... and started losing big when i tried to play my LAG style, since they didn't understand my moves/lines.

The poker learning curve is like our winning graphs, it goes up and down, up and down, hopefully in a constant improvement overall, but with slight short-term regressions.
We may learn a new concept and use it successfully for a while. Then learn another one, and also use it successfully. Then another one... Suddenly they dont work anymore and we start losing, until we realize that for all of them to work together the situation must be right and we need to balance their use, or else we just become knowledgeable donks trying to steal on every scare card, floating every c-bet, 3-betting every loose raiser... and losing our money

it's never bad to just go back to basics from time to time and play hands the way we used to (by the book) just to remember why we sometimes vary our play, and why/when certain moves work

Originally Posted by Chopper

i pick up JJ in MP. i raise after a limper. get a two callers from lp and the blind and limper call. flop comes A 7 4 two diamonds. a limper leads, i promptly raise

Originally Posted by Chopper

must post this really fast, then its off to the NL challenge (tee time: sept 1st) i just pimped with my buddy Pythonic. more on that later. but, this is mostly for you, aspdikas...

i just crammed in a quick donk session at 2, .50/1 tables and 1, 1/2 table like we talked about. i finally caught some serious fire, too. no brilliant play by me, if fact, one seriously stupid flop bet where i likely am rarely ahead (i'll describe it in a minute). but, everything went as right as went wrong the other day. got it all back in one quickie...plus RB, biotches. doubled up on the 1/2 and one of the .50/1 tables. so, i pocketed a quick $60. i'll take it.

to that crappy hand...

i pick up JJ in MP. i raise after a limper. get a two callers from lp and the blind and limper call. flop comes A 7 4 two diamonds. a limper leads, i promptly raise (i figure i would be doing well to narrow it a bit to increase my chances). all fold, but the limper...who 3bets. i call and know i'm dead to an A. however, i wasnt watching his stack very well and he only had another .50 behind (the dumbass). so, the next street was inconsequential. he led, i called. he flipped the A over and took the pot.

i was planning to fold the turn, but called since he had squat. but, assuming he's deeper and i have no read....arent i dead in the water almost all the time after that 3bet? it has to be a rare fellow that b/3bets a draw oop, yes? so, its a fairly safe turn fold against our standard villains?

sorry, hadnt seen this...

yes to your reasoning w a few caveats...
there are maniacs out there... yesterday i was playing the cryptos and a guy did that on a A93 board... he had 77 and rivered a set against my AT

So you never know, but in general, i will fold the turn in a small/medium size pot against a reg who takes that line if i dont catch a J or read him as out of line.
in that hand, i think you did the right thing even if you didn't know it (not noticing his stack size). With a pot that big and no risk of future bets by him, kicking out the rest of the field and looking him up for 50c on the turn is pretty dandy! that's great odds to draw to 2 outs on a big pot. Plus shorties tend to just spew with any pair, so you may actually be ahead.

The thing is, if anyone else behind you calls or raises, all changes... you are dead to the J.

Good to hear you had that good session at 1/2, dude! keep it up!
You'll see it doesnt change much from .5/1 and you can beat it pretty good. Just don't rush things and let that confidence build up.
I'm doing just that with 2/4, going slowly, regaining confidence and recovering my losses.

Originally Posted by Chopper

running another prop with a friend, and we are competing for pride at 2NL 6max...for kicks.

those players suck so hard!!! we are both over our first 2k hands and are both over a 23/100 ptbb. and, we arent particularly hot. but, we definitely arent cold, either.

i got called down when i had trip Q's by a guy when i bet three streets hard. i pushed the river. he snap-called with 85o for 8hi! i dont think this even qualifies as poker.

:lol:

he though you were bluffing

sure i dabble with NL, but i still think LHE is the game for me. here is why...i'm not good enough at NL to make more money there.

look at these numbers i poked with tonight...in parentheses is the conservative bankroll...

2NL = $.04 ptbb. assume 15 ptbb/100 winrate. = $.60 per 100 hands ($80)
5NL = $.10 10 /100 = $1 per 100 ($200)
25NL= $.50 5 /100 = $2.50 per 100 ($1000)
100NL= $2 ptbb 2/100 = $4 per 100 ($4000)

now look at LHE by comparison, where the winrate is smaller...

.50/1 = $1 bb assume 3 bb/100 winrate. = $3 per 100 hands ($500)
1/2 = $2 bb 1 / 100 = $2 per 100 ($1000)
2/4 = $4 bb 1 /100 = $4 per 100 ($2000)

sure, its not as profitable at the micros. but, we arent here for the money. we are here for the training/discipline/fundamentals.

i dont think i can beat NL for those numbers, long-term, anymore due to the tightness of the games....and my suckage. but, i can acheive those LHE numbers because of the lack of education, fishyness, and offsetting my suckage due to bet structure.

and, i didnt even factor in any rakeback/bonus programs. i also think i have a better shot at beating a 1 bb/100 than a 2 ptbb/100 at 100NL, personally.

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, we arent here for the money

WHAT
speak for yourself

I play Starcraft for fun

Originally Posted by Chopper

...in parentheses is the conservative bankroll...

for limit, more like 500$ for 1/2, 1.2k$ for 2/4...

Originally Posted by asdpikas

Originally Posted by Chopper

...in parentheses is the conservative bankroll...

for limit, more like 500$ for 1/2, 1.2k$ for 2/4...

right, for FR. but, "conservative" players are rolling off of 500+ bb's now with the popularity of 6max...which is why i went 500 bb's.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, we arent here, at the micros for the money

WHAT
speak for yourself

I play Starcraft for fun

FMP

Chopper, seriously, you lost 50BB and you QQ this bad?

what? i dont see what you are talking about?

I'm at the micros for the money because I'm not rolled for anything else

Originally Posted by iopq

Chopper, seriously, you lost 50BB and you QQ this bad?

here's what i wondered about. i am completely confused by what you mean here. i'm sure its so obvious its going right over my head.

wish i had some hands to show from tonight's session. it was just one of those where everything goes right. people chase and miss, TP holds up, sets get flushes turned but boats rivered. one of those.

up a quick 35bb's in about an hour. i just really enjoy it when things hold up like they should.

in a football pool, too. one of those confidence leagues. indy and san diego killed me, but green bay gave me solid points. its down to two of us and i need denver to win. if so, i gain 5 points on the guy. if oakland wins, he holds his 2 point lead. we both picked denver, but i put more points on the game than he did. if the broncos hold on here, thats another smooth $45.

i'll take money any way i can win it. lol.

here's another small tidbit. i am still playing that 2nl prop bet. i slipped under 20 ptbb/100 after about 3500 hands. but, i gotta tell you, its not worth my time. and, here's why...

a 21 ptbb/100 is about the same as a .75/100 at 100NL. or, a 1.5/100 at 50NL. there are pro's and con's to which level to play.

pro's...playing lower has NO stress. very few coolers. very few bad/breakeven stretches. its not hard to get the money in the middle when ahead. honestly, its hella fun kicking the shit out of donkeys. it makes you feel better than you really are.

con's...playing higher has much better potential for making money. ldo, its easier to win at a 1.5 at 100NL than a 42 at 2NL...lol. playing tougher competition makes you a better player and refines your game. playing lower builds some bad habits that wont translate well if/when you move up.

i sure do like going back to the "crushing the competition is hella fun" and "there's no stress in whether or not you will win" down in the uber micros. besides, this is a hobby, not a profession. so, you may as well play where you have fun.

that said, i think its best to find a spot somewhere in the middle.

Originally Posted by Chopper

its not hard to get the money in the middle when ahead. honestly, its hella fun kicking the shit out of donkeys. it makes you feel better than you really are.

Sure is.. I just played 4 (two 6 handed, two 10 handed) $2 Ultra Turbo sngs on UB with a friend of mine and I won three of them. If only I could run like that in my regular $20-30 sngs :P