Chop's op's..

omg. looks like 25/50 crap.

nice 3bet btw. too wide for me just yet, but i really like it. and, i dont see that flop checked at my tables in a 3bet pot....ever. lol.

logged a bootyload today. 38 DoN's is a lot for me anyway. i am 8-tabling them now w/ no problems. ROI is 16% through 560 of them. has me up $450ish overall. the ITM is about 60%, give or take a point or two.

i am watching some regs i find during the day, and during the night through sharkscope.

if you read the strat articles, you will find the advice is to sit like a rock and play the bubble with a midstack. i am starting to disagree because it is what EVERY OTHER PLAYER is also doing. the way to make money in poker, from what i have found, is to do THE OPPOSITE of the masses. if they are tight/aggressive, you should almost play loose/passive and let them bluff off all their whiffs. if they are loose/passive, you should run tight/aggressive. and, so on. rocks are great for the maniacs. and, maniacs are great for the rocks and stations. the trick is to know which person is which and adjust yourself accordingly.

although, in these DoN's the trick is more aggression than playing loose or tight. and, the aggression must be timed rather well.

back to my point...sorry. the nitty regs all run <10 vpip. some WAY under. that is what the articles will tell you to do, but it is so wrong. a lot of these players are getting smarter and you cannot simply fold your way to the money.

here are some regs (hiding names of course), their games played, and their ROI's.

XXX 4294 7%
XXX 2885 9%
XXX 1744 6%
XXX 6881 18% (this guy appears good)
look back up for my comparison.

not that i have many tourneys, as compared to these guys, and there are still a lot of players with MANY more played. i will check them tomorrow.

point is: playing 8/4 or 6/5 or 10/8 isnt going to get the job done if you are weak/tight post flop.

here are some tips i have figured out based on reading and a bit of adjusting (not that i am great...not a brag by any means). but, i post them here because no one will find them and i am not educating any fishies...lol. so, if you like any of them, take them for yourself and dont share. shhhhhhhh.

- early stages, play uber tight. premiums only. steal very little. dont cold call ever. dont bluff.
- taking a 200 pot does nothing for you when you will be trying to steal 100/200 blinds later. so, why risk it with dominated hands?

- mid stages, start to steal a bit. look for the super multi-tablers and screw them over. if they dont 3bet you, they will likely fold the flop. they believe in ICM and "fold to the finish." take advantage. if they call you, give up...they have it.
- maintain your stack. you will need it for the bubble.
- dont be afraid of getting aggressive here. if picking on the right people, risk is minimal, and the benefits of taking blinds pays off when you whittle others down a bit causing them to push earlier with speculative crap.

- late stages, must be aggressive now. if you are short, you need chips. if not, you need to be so ridiculously patient it will bore you to sleep. let the others fight. but, generally, push when you want to play pf. and, never call a push unless you have bullets or a super deep stack.
- if you arent last in chips when it is 6-handed, dont play. wait for the blinds to force you to get active. but, when you need to remember: 49o and JTs are still generally a 70/30 dog to AK. so, dont fear getting called. you need to get in first and force them to call you with the goods. they wont call with crap, usually.

when pushing, avoid dominated crap like QJ and KT. i would rather push 46s into a nit. if he calls, i am live. A6o sucks to call raises with so let the others do it.

i see A6o call a 7Jo so often it will scare you. dont be Ahi because it will tilt you to lose to trash. most people dont realize the equity you have with the right ATC. it looks like you took a horrible beat. but, when you run it through pstove, its rarely as bad as it feels. use that in reverse when your M goes under 3.

more later. not that you limit guys care. but, if you want a quick G....try them out. they arent hard. right now 8-tabling is making a 25/50c and 50/1 player about $9.75/hr. i cant beat that on the LHE tables.

crappy weekend at the DON's. went 50%, literally. about 30/60ish. but, rebounded nicely this afternoon with a bruiser...24/33.

any LHE was meh.

however, i did something i havent done before....

i am in my mid-30's and dont drink much anymore. however, i joined a men's club at church (more of a drinking club that plays poker...lol) and got absolutely bombed thursday night. so ripped, i cant remember being that drunk since i've been married....9 years ago.

i was so drunk i couldnt sleep when i got home at 1am. so, i decided to play some pokahs. usually, a death sentence, so i decided to play my normal levels instead of dropping, which i usually have the sense to do when i know i wont play optimally.

however, i played solid poker and concentrated my ass off. i took the 50/1 tables for 40 BB's and the 25/50 for another 30. all in about a 45 minute span. i ran about 18/10/2.4....so, i wasnt showing much affect of being blitzed, imo. i knocked out a $10 DoN and a $5. showing a profit for the night of about $60. cant complain, but i learned something...

i learned to valuebet marginal hands into call stations. i was struggling with that before, but this one really sank in because i was too drunk to give a crap. i really started to see some situations where i should be 3betting turns/rivers and c/r'ing to hopefully induce 3bets to cap. stuff like that. only one problem...

i cant remember what i learned...lol. i only remember that i played really solid for being so drunk. i remember a light bulb went on before i crashed, but i can no longer find the switch.

LOL
be glad it didnt go the other way!
sometimes alcohol makes us see things clearly, but most of the times we just see things more blurry...

i wouldnt say i was thinking clearly. but, i would say i was able to harness it well...realizing i was at a mental disadvantage in the first place, and respecting that fact.

i almost stepped up to 3/6 "to see what it was like," but, was able to talk myself out of it. so, the alcohol was definitely trying to take it's toll on my thinking.

i woke up the next morning and thought, "phew, i cant believe i posted such a strong session."

update for end of month...

well done month. crushed the DoN's for 59% ITM. these are a goldmine considering the time involved. 8-tabling and 59% ITM amounts to about $8.50/hr at the $5's! low variance (overall), and a solid money maker.

cake, only played about 3500 hands this month, but only played about 4500 in october. when i play 6max, i only 2-table. i play 4 when playing fr. so, not many hours/long sessions, but solid numbers.

withdrew, finally, from UB. i wont ever play there. i have too much going on elsewhere. and, i doubt i play much at AP anymore, either. may as well take that off the table. in case anyone is interested, UB cut me a check by mail in under 2 weeks. thats nice turnaround.

will decimate the bankroll soon, though. need to pay those taxes...lol. but, with the DoN's going well, i will crank that back by march at the latest.

yay!!

sweet start to december!

i am up in what little LHE i've played. i havent played near the amount of 25/50 i usually play. instead, when i play, i intend to play 50/1 or nothing...barring ubertight games.

and, the DoNs are unbelievably hot with me right now. i run 58% ITM currently over about 750 of them. but, i am on a complete tear. i am running about 63% over my first 98 of them...42 of them at the 10's instead of the 5's.

my searching on sharkscope has revealed that my ROI, and my friend's are well above average at the 5's. and, that there are few within 1% of our ROI's no matter how much searching we do. so, we must be doing something right, and that means its time to move on up and see if we are still better than most at the next level.

oh, i moved up. he's a pussy. (look at me...calling someone else a pussy for being afraid to move up) do you see the irony? i sure do.

havent played the DoNs much the past several days. i've goofed with some fun "challenges." i donked a couple bucks up to 10/20c fairly quickly and almost forgot how much i LOVE microstakes limit. frustrating? sure. but, oh so much fun to remind myself there are still some terrible fish coming in fresh.

played one round of DoN and finished 5/8. not bad considering i lost my first three and had to finish with 5 in a row to maintain profitability for the round...lol. short term money watching FTW.

played some LHE late tonight. sat in for about an hour and cranked off $40. cant beat the softness of some of the games when you see them. didnt hurt that i caught some good cards in the right spots and flopped well.

i have a reg on cake that avoids me now...like the plague. he does everything but leave the table..which sometimes he does. but, he used to play ultraLAGgy when i was around. but, i adjusted to his ass and started calling him down w/ sd value hands, isolating him HU, punking him in bvb situations, and valuebetting him rather thinly when he started getting shy on me. lol. he stopped playing against me. now, he must have notes. i saw him tonight for the first time in 2 months and he donked with me for an orbit and shut down. he turned into a rock. he became so easy to play against it wasnt funny. he only bet when he had it. he stopped bluffing because he knew i would call him on it and throw in a river raise on scary cards. i have seen him do this a few times before, but now i'm convinced he wont play against ME. he just lets me run over him now. i cant stop laughing.

i may dig up some hands, but i will likely just look for him tomorrow when i can remember the exact table i was on. but, it is so nice to see a table aggressor give you that much respect.

oh well. off to bed. until tomorrow...

been awhile since last update. this one is non-"limit" related, except for the fact that the games at both cake and stars are still super soft, imo, even at the 50c/1 level....if you adjust properly. figuring out the adjustment is the toughest part. i'll leave that up to you...lol.

but, i have set a serious goal for the first time in a long time when it comes to poker. i have some things i want to accomplish in the next several months, and i thought the "new year's resolution" thing (which i normally hate) couldnt come at a better time.

i devastated my br on stars with paying taxes this year, and i havent taken the time to get my money off cake, so, i am virtually starting from scratch over at stars...once again. but, this is the year that ends that bullshit.

i will be using the DoN's for a "building" phase. and, i will supplement some LHE in there from time to time. but, with the LHE stuff i will adhere to the roll requirements my stars' bankroll will supply.

i started with a borrowed $300. and, i have another $400ish on the way from fantasy football (quick shout out the the FFootball fish of them all....pythonic....lol...j/k) but, that all but repays the $300 "stake" from my brother. so, effectively, i will have about $400ish with which to play.

i like Dog's br requirements of 150 BB for the highest level, but spending most of your time a level, or two, below your "highest level." and, almost always only sitting on tables with soft games (which is why you spend most of your time below your highest level.) so, i will start off at 1/2 being the highest since i have $300+. however, i will be sitting on 25c/50c and 50c/1 most of the time. as i grind it up, i will move up until i feel i am overmatched. hopefully, i will get silver status and crank off a $50 bonus or two along the way. but, i may decide to take some gift cards instead to supplement my "goals" for the summer. here are the goals, since i will also mention when i achieve them, too.

1) taxes for next year....$1800ish
2) new DSLR camera and a couple lenses to restart my photo hobby. (i used to shoot 35mm but stopped as the digital revolution began)...$850ish.
3) LCD HDTV for the living room. geez, the prices are dropping these days...$850ish.
4) and a trip for the wife. our 10th anniversary is coming in october and she deserves the honeymoon we never took because kids came so damned fast...lol....$2100ish.

that totals $5600 to hit all four. and, here's how...

right now, i run 58%ITM at the DoN's. i may mix 5 and 10's, but mostly will hang at the 5's for a month or two since the roll is so small again. if i play 48/day, that is 6 rounds of 8 tabling them. with 6 day weeks, that makes 288/week. at 58%, i will win 167 of them. profit of $172.40 per week on average...or $725/month. that puts me on a 6-8 month pace to make all 4 goals w/o moving up or adding in any LHE profit, bonuses, rakeback, etc.

i've sold the wife on this, and told you about it, so now its just time to GO TO WORK. this will get tough when the grass starts to grow again, so i may bang through a lot of these over the next couple months in hopes of getting a big head start.

just wanted to establish a place of accountability for myself. i plan to update the progress almost daily. if you have any questions, feel free to ask in here. already two days behind, so i have work to do to catch up...lol.

GO GO GO!!!!

u'll make it... those goals are way too easy for u!
(meaning: u are good enough to accomplish them and have some fun while at it)

GL!

now, that makes me think i should have set them even tougher...lol. as if you were offering a prop bet of say $50 to make them a bit harder....hmmmm?

j/k, i'm not much for prop bets. i'm a fucking nit. i only play with an edge.

Originally Posted by Chopper

now, that makes me think i should have set them even tougher...lol. as if you were offering a prop bet of say $50 to make them a bit harder....hmmmm?

j/k, i'm not much for prop bets. i'm a fucking nit. i only play with an edge.

LOL, i never make prop bets, but lets say i'll pay u lunch if/when ever we meet IRL if u achieve those goals AND build 1.5k rolls both on cake and stars. EAAAAASY

but, i dont like mcdonald's french fries. how on earth will you ever afford it?

dont you guys have "lunch and laid" combos over there anyway? i'll take on of those.....to go. kthx

the 1500 at cakeycake is a sure thing. that site is so GD soft it almost hurts to play there with rakeback. but, i've also noticed stars is softening, too. they are simply TOO aggressive. you can play marginal shit and call down with 2nd pair no kicker and still scoop a 6BB pot off them when they 3barrel their QJs from MP2.

i think this is a complex a lot of players are developing...due to forums and NOT understanding why they are supposed to be aggressive. they think that the more aggressive they are, the more they win. they dont realize they are making themselves easier to pick off.

they are so concerned with running pretty looking stats. they want to look like a 25/20/3 because they think they will stomp all the fish out. and, they wonder why stations give them such trouble. "hey, that fag was supposed to fold his 55 to that AJ9 flop when i was repping bullets!"

and, i always find myself saying, "get a clue, fag, at what point DO you actually take your foot off the gas and THINK about my cards, too....or the fact i may be on to your constant raising?"

well, i guess we are all just a bunch of fags....lol.

NO BET!

I WAS thinking Mc Do fries, cant afford better! dunno about "lunch and laid", but next time i see a cute waitress i'll ask about it!

Originally Posted by asdpikas

NO BET!

I WAS thinking Mc Do fries, cant afford better! dunno about "lunch and laid", but next time i see a cute waitress i'll ask about it!

might want to consider ordering more than just fries when you ask. lol.

i dont know if you get the tv show, Seinfeld, over there, but i am reminded of an episode where Kramer is flipping bills in his wallet and says, "big bills on the outside, Jerry."

Jerry says, "thats a five."

Kramer responds, "giddyup."

i love that show.

Originally Posted by Chopper

they are so concerned with running pretty looking stats. they want to look like a 25/20/3 because they think they will stomp all the fish out.

Great thread.
What would you say "good" stats are for microstakes full-ring?

Originally Posted by MarkWade

Originally Posted by Chopper

they are so concerned with running pretty looking stats. they want to look like a 25/20/3 because they think they will stomp all the fish out.

Great thread.
What would you say "good" stats are for microstakes full-ring?

thx, but like i said, players are too heavily focused on "stats." i guess my answer is: it depends.

is your table running tight? loose? aggressive? do you have a mix, and can you adjust to the hand depending on WHO is in the pot? if so, your "stats" will run in direct proportion to your confidence level of your POST flop game.

hmmm, food for thought.

I was thinking more long-term and using stats to find and plug leaks. Anyway, good luck on your goals.

Originally Posted by MarkWade

I was thinking more long-term and using stats to find and plug leaks. Anyway, good luck on your goals.

its really hard to say as to what is too loose and too tight, imo. people play different styles. but, the better you learn (we are all learning) to read hands and assess accurate ranges, the better you will play post flop....and the more money you will make. the results will look like this, imo:

- you will steal more blinds.
- you will enter more blind vs blind wars....from BOTH sides.
- you will test players with c/r's and 3bets.
- you will play much looser IN POSITION.
- you will value bet much thinner.
- you will tighten up, but get sticky, against aggressive players.
- you will change styles (from loose to tight and from aggressive to passive) much faster than your opponents.

and, you will do all of this with better timing than you ever used to.

this is the progression of a poker player, imo.

what i would say to you is to post your stats (vpip/pfr/AF along with winrate, position, and some other misc things) in a new thread. and, let us ALL jump in with our opinions. we will find your leaks and get you focused on the right things...if you arent already.

if you want to post them in here, thats fine, too. but, you will likely only get my opinion...and maybe another. there are a lot of good limit players in here that dont read this thread.

good to have you here.

Hey, thanks for the feedback. I've set a goal for myself to play at least 5,000 hands at .05/.10 or below before looking at my stats. I bought a tracking program for the mac the other night, so I'm just at 200 hands right now. I can't find my copy of Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em but the starting requirements are slowly coming back to me. And I'm working through Slotboom's Hold'em on the Come for chasing draws. When I reach 5,000 hands (hopefully by the end of the month), I'll start a thread asking for opinions.

I'm glad I found this site. 2+2 is too much information for me and Stoxpoker is over my head. I'm going to use you guys and your knowledge to get a solid foundation and move up from there.

well, 2p2 shouldnt be "over your head." there is a lot of info over there, tho. but, try and look at FTR's stickies, too. they also warrant a great deal of attention. but, the difference between FTR and 2p2, imo, is the friendliness of its regulars. we dont tend to set "rules" for posting hands. and, we dont tend to criticize the small bullshit, like converting hands "the right way," like they tend to do. we just try to offer advice. but, thats my opinion. oh, and Stox is over a lot of peoples' heads, but its still very much worth working through.

i like Miller's SSHE so much i cant put it into words, but Stox's book is becoming a close 2nd, for me.

5k is good to "get your feel back," but i still wouldnt put too much stock in your stats at that point. however, that would be enough for you to ask some more intelligent questions (instead of "should i 3bet AK from MP?"...lol). log those hands and post away.

we look forward to it.

how are the don's going?

awesome, but i wonder about telling my secrets to the fish pond. i am running 63% ITM this month for an ROI of 15%+. i know those dont compare with standard roi's, but i can 12 table these in my sleep. for me, that makes them the clear choice. variance is almost non-existent and the bankroll is shooting forward in chunks i cant duplicate on the limit tables due to stakes.

limit has taken a huge hit this month. lots of weird hands. but, it may be mostly variance. although, looking back, i dont crush the limit micros like i think i do. i'm around a 2 and would like to be a 4. have been steadily moving up to where i dont play a ton of 25/50c anymore. its mostly 50/1 and 1/2. i would like to play more 1/2 and mix some 2/4 for rakeback and FPP purposes, but the DONs are taking care of any lack of profit.

i dont update here as often as i said i would...mostly because of the struggle with telling people where the money is. i certainly wont be giving any tips in public for the time being. privately? perhaps.

although, if someone beats 100NL for a 2+, or 1/2 for a 2+, i assume this isnt worth their time at the smallest DONs where i prowl...lol. however, these are juicy and steady enough for me to promise the wife and kids some money this summer....for a trip? hmmmm.

i played some 1/2 limit today while showing my girlfriend how poker works. Mixed in with tables of 10nl, 100nl and 200nl.

Maybe it was sample-size, but the limit table was packed with dead-nit blind money....

as for the secret-keeping, not a bad idea! keep on raking it in - I'll probably join you some session

as ivan drago once said in Rocky IV.........i must breaaak you!

as for the nits and dead money, you are right. if you can find a full ring game, at that level, over 25% to flops...JUMP ON THAT SHIT! i hardly ever find one over 30. 6max is where the loose-asses live.

Originally Posted by Chopper

as ivan drago once said in Rocky IV.........i must breaaak you!

as for the nits and dead money, you are right. if you can find a full ring game, at that level, over 25% to flops...JUMP ON THAT SHIT! i hardly ever find one over 30. 6max is where the loose-asses live.

dude! i know ur not yet rolled, but the 2/4 and 3/6 at Bdog play like the microest of the micros with big donk limpfests like u cant believe.

https://www.pokertableratings.com/re...hash=510350854

cant find the hand yesterday where i raised JJ utg, got reraised by 83s, 2 more people came along for 3bets, the flop was 555, turn 3, river 2, and everyone stayed calling till the river where i got a final call from the 83 dude... MEGA LOL

part of the key to limit is finding the sites that have traditional gambooling games, too. casinos, sportsbetting, etc. lots of idiots find their way to the poker tables on those sites from what i hear. that is part of the reason i like cake so much.

i may look into bodog eventually, but there is hardly a way to get money shifted around from the US these days.....i miss neteller so much.

Originally Posted by Chopper

as ivan drago once said in Rocky IV.........i must breaaak you!

Drago also said:
He is not human, He is like a piece of irooooooooon.

lol.

I'm pretty sure I'm joining the limit ranks. Been studying up a couple of LHE DC series'

Do you reckon hand reading skills learnt in Limit would help alot for your NL game?

bump - happy '09 chopper :P

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Do you reckon hand reading skills learnt in Limit would help alot for your NL game?

YES, YES, AND MORE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

at least it has helped me a shitload. just for fun, i played some 2NL the other night, and read a lot of the cards like they were open book tests.

the patterns of limit play can really help you establish the strength of an opponent's hand, imo. NL used to be "bet/bet/fold to river c/r" with me. but, limit has infused a lot more thinking into my game. i am a way better player for it.

go log 75k hands of micro limit hold'em, reading limit specific books while doing so, and tell me if your WHOLE game doesnt jump 10 fold. i can almost promise you it will.

and, welcome over to the "good" side. lol.

and, thanks, Robb. you are still a stud.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Do you reckon hand reading skills learnt in Limit would help alot for your NL game?

YES, YES, AND MORE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

qfmft

Im fully keen to start playing limit aye, still watching the DC series: The price was right by danzasmack. Might watch it again and then start on the tables.

Anyone else got a limit blog/op thats a good read?

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Anyone else got a limit blog/op thats a good read?

Is anyone besides chopper playing limit?

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Anyone else got a limit blog/op thats a good read?

Is anyone besides chopper playing limit?

aye aye!

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Anyone else got a limit blog/op thats a good read?

Is anyone besides chopper playing limit?

this made me laugh.

yeah, asdpikas has a better blog/op than i do. i dont update as much as i've gone back to posting hands to inspire discussion/traffic. i bounce back and forth, but rest assured i am logging as many hands and don tourneys as i can. i will do a bigger update soon. i've had a couple light bulbs go on lately.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Anyone else got a limit blog/op thats a good read?

Is anyone besides chopper playing limit?

this made me laugh.

yeah, asdpikas has a better blog/op than i do. i dont update as much as i've gone back to posting hands to inspire discussion/traffic. i bounce back and forth, but rest assured i am logging as many hands and don tourneys as i can. i will do a bigger update soon. i've had a couple light bulbs go on lately.

well, not sure my ops are really worth reading "strategy-wise", but they may help in seeing how things work in the long run, how there are downswings and upswings, how i felt about them... etc...

But I think, that's about all...

Chops! your op rules! Maybe u should separate the Dons in a new section, though...

Originally Posted by asdpikas

Chops! your op rules! Maybe u should separate the Dons in a new section, though...

i would, but then it would land in STT or somewhere i dont frequent...or the "op" forum. i may do something there. but, i dont want to talk strategy about them.

i didnt ever think that forums would "hurt" the game that much. but, i think either the boom is dying off or all the education out there is taking its toll on the games...its probably both. and, i dont understand why we try to "teach the masses." i have an ongoing dilemma with this concept because i dont want to ruin MY fish ponds, but i also want to learn and get better myself. and, its not fair to only take information and never give back. but, i dont understand why we try to teach the very people we are trying to win money from?

now, limit is a little different, imo, because there is less popularity to the game. i dont think many people read about limit. but, i could be wrong. if you juice the content of a forum, for traffic's sake, it has to have some strategy in it and/or HHs for people to learn from....or no one would ever visit.

i'm rambling because my thoughts arent very clear on this particular subject. but, the DONs dont have a ton of volume, and there isnt much room for your winrate to fall before it drastically affects your profit. so, i would rather not "teach" about what i've learned by playing them. i would just rather post some narcissistic commentary about how juicy they are and back it with some pretty graphs and proof. but, no one would read that drivvle because they would get absolutely nothing out of it.

hmmmm, the dilemma continues.

here's another pickle for you to chew on...

i have friends that are more than willing to get together and play poker monthly. that is great. but, they want to play those stupid wild card games, and games where money floods the pot and there is no way to judge hand strength yet. basically, they play reckless gambling games, imo. (last night we played $2 7-card showdown. no betting. throw in your $2 and whoever has the best 5 card hand, wins the antes. sure, its breakeven, but its stupid as hell, imo). the question is: how do we shift them over to some more skilled games and keep them happy? dealer's choice...with limitations?

thats where i think i am headed. something like this:

everyone draws a number. the number 1 picks the game we play for the first 30 minutes. the number 2 picks the game we play for the next 30 minutes. and, so on. the list of games would look like this:
31 (kind of carnival game)
pass the trash/screw your neighbor
hold'em
omaha8
stud
stud8
razz
2-7 triple draw
5 card draw

and, we would settle on a betting structure somewhere close to 25c antes, 50c bets with 4 maximum raises, $1 bets on 4th streets with 4 maximum raises.

i am just so disappointed with how the game went last night. i thought i had it set up correctly, but it wasnt at my house, so i didnt want to be rude and take control, or bitch, about where the game was headed. but, it went right to the "luckier" games that we used to play in college dorms when we were drunk. now that i have an actual appreciation for poker, i HATE games that just juice the pot before most people even get to see half their cards. that just feels like a slot machine to me.

any suggestions? (maybe i need new friends? lol.)

Chop,

I think you are old enough now, so i'll tell you the truth about life.... j/k

1. Fish are fish for many reasons, one of them NOT being "lack of information"

2. What makes a certain game more difficult is not more or less info, since 20 years ago, it is wether good players that think and study the game take an interest in it or not. Ratio of players that study vs fish is what makes a game juicy or not.

3. All the info is out there, all about tourneys, SnGs, DoNs... Push or fold EV, bubble play, early play, ladder principle... u name it.

What I mean by all this is that u shouldnt worry about making your games tougher if u discuss strategy. Fish wont read it, and good players will find the info, anyways, so u may as well try to improve urself...

About your live games with friends, all i can think of is:

-coach them a little bit
-boast about your good results (trying to get them to want to emulate u and learn) and how the more serious games are soooo coool
-dont make them feel stupid and dont critisize the games they like.... just "yeah, Anaconda w deuces wild is a fine game, but holdem is the cadillac of poker, dude, it's your call..." instead of "that's a crappy game of luck, play some real poker!"

About coaching, they should show more interest if they think they "got it". Ppl wanna play those crazy games because they dont "get" more serious games anyways...

Playing what is considered "cool" also attracts people.

That's all that comes to mind, and looking at it, i'm not sure its worth much, but maybe it will work?

good points. and, i am wouldnt make fun of them for playing those stupid games. i only call them stupid to ppl i believe also find them a waste....like us in here.

i also understand i need to go through a little of this "research" to find my true group of players, and it may take some time...and encouragement.

Live sit n go's are fun - a lot of ppl have seen the WSOP on TV and enjoy paying $20, say, and fighting for a top finish. If you have 14 ppl, you can do a 2-table sng w/ the first 6 who crash out able to buy into a 6max single table event.

I have a friend who runs a weekly SNG night with about 20 guys, and they run two full SNG's each night with various 6max STT's starting up as the "early finishers" decide to play. It's hard to lose more than $50, and the winners walk away with a hundred or more. Guys bring a 6 of beer or $5 to pitch in for pizza. It's a pretty cool way to introduce NLH, maybe.

Let them keep their game, but every once in a while go for a "tourney" night. My buddy often has a 6max STT with a $50 BI at the end of the night, usually for the guys who won (or the losers who want to lose more

i hate home sng's. in fact, i dont like sng's in general. sure the don's are profitable, and the only reason i play them, but i think they suck.

i like casual play, where we (errrrr, they) can talk and not have to pay attention. we can listen to tunes. we can watch a game in the background. that stuff.

and, with tourneys, everyone has to show up on time, and no one can leave early until they are knocked out. they are inconvenient to a lot of people with families if played during the week. so, i am avoiding them for those reasons.....oh, and they are already overdone. if i hosted tourneys, i have a cumulative point system that also rewards regular players that i would use, too.

"the dream" is to get off the gambooling games, and introduce skill.

I can identify with your home game problems Chopper. What my group does now is usually has a sit n go of 6-8 people allowing one rebuy or addon in the first hour. If it's a larger game of 9-10 players often we allow unlimited rebuys. That way for $5 or $10 everyone gets to play for at least an hour.

Considering our games usually only last 2-2.5 hours, there aren't a whole lot of hands to determine who wins. So skill really isn't the largest component in determining who wins, but it still plays a decent enough role to appease me and my luckbox donk friends

After that we play some nearly 100% luck gambool games like pass the ace and 31 for a couple bucks each.

Maybe work out some kind of rotation. Play one orbit of hold'em, followed by an orbit of a gamboling game, etc. That way they get exposed to all sorts of luck and luck/skill games. The all luck games may be EV neutral for you, but it will appease them and make them willing to play holdem and other more skilled games.

good idea, korn. i was thinking of a half hour rotation, but that may play well, too.

heres the "dream," though...

remember the WSOP with Steve Danneman at the final table? (thats the last one i gave two shits about, personally) well, he mentioned he has a group of friends that play NL on weekends, or once a month, whatever. he said he wasnt the best of his group, but wasnt the worst. but, that they played NL almost exclusively. thats what i want!

a group of friends that love to play cards, and eventually get fairly good. i'm not in this for the rent. i like my friends. i dont want to screw them out of significant amounts of money by playing games they dont know. BUT, i want to play the games that require more skill. i want to keep the stakes small so no one gets killed, as i "should" have quite an edge. but, if some show interest, i would be happy to tell them some basics, too. i dont mind bringing up the skill level a bit. i wouldnt mind if there was no realistic edge in these games. (i know this sounds sacrilegious)

i just want to all be "fairly" decent at the games...a generally HORSE structure...and see who comes out on top.

i know these guys like the non-skilled games because they wouldnt know what to do in some of the skilled games. i am looking for people i already know that WANT to learn the others and actually play some "real" cards. not just the drunken carni games.

polyanna as hell, i know.

The problem with NLH for small stakes home games is that very often someone will lose fairly large amounts. The way my donk friends play in our sngs, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone drop 4+ buyins within a couple hours. And for my friends that would be enough to sour them into not wanting to play any more that night or perhaps even for weeks.

At the stakes we play our sngs, there wouldn't really be a workable size cash game to play, other than perhaps a $2 max buyin, 1c/2c blinds. But even with 100BB+ stacks, my friends play so loose against raises that pots are often 40BB+ on the flop.

I guess in short what I am saying is that with multiple terribly loose players gamboling with deep stacks, there are going to be big winners and losers. They would like the wins, but not as much as they would hate and be bitter over big losses. I'd rather have a more luck-weighted game to play, then no game at all. The fish just lose to fast in NL :P

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

The problem with NLH for small stakes home games is that very often someone will lose fairly large amounts. The way my donk friends play in our sngs, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone drop 4+ buyins within a couple hours. And for my friends that would be enough to sour them into not wanting to play any more that night or perhaps even for weeks.

At the stakes we play our sngs, there wouldn't really be a workable size cash game to play, other than perhaps a $2 max buyin, 1c/2c blinds. But even with 100BB+ stacks, my friends play so loose against raises that pots are often 40BB+ on the flop.

I guess in short what I am saying is that with multiple terribly loose players gamboling with deep stacks, there are going to be big winners and losers. They would like the wins, but not as much as they would hate and be bitter over big losses. I'd rather have a more luck-weighted game to play, then no game at all. The fish just lose to fast in NL :P

yep, this month i played 2 sessions of live NL with my friends. It was 10 euro buyin, and I won 300+ euros. That's 30+ buyins in 2 4h sessions.
There are always biiig losers. Wether they take it bad or not is another issue.

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

The problem with NLH for small stakes home games is that very often someone will lose fairly large amounts.

i agree, and the NL example was Danneman's. i am only allowing fixed limit games for those exact reasons. and, i still saw a friend lose $40 last night in about 2 1/2 hours....50c at a time. that is why i like fixed limit games for "home cash game" events.

they even backed off the hold'em games when i said the betting goes in increments of $1 on the turn and river. they wanted to keep it at 50c. i couldnt even begin to explain that anyone that takes a flop is headed to showdown.....with odds to suck your dick off. and i didnt even try. i just said, "ok, whatever you guys want." that concept was so far over their heads it would need an oxygen mask...and i'm sure it was over my head about 4 years ago, too.

this may be a super long work in progress.

Yeah, they just don't get it. It's a catch-22. They don't like fixed limit because they want to be able to have fun bluffing and making plays. But they don't want to lose lots of money by playing lots of huge cash pots. And as poor, loose players, the pots will be huge often.

So that more or less leaves tournaments, where you can buy in for a small amount, but then get a ton of tournament chips to throw around as you please.

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

...So that more or less leaves tournaments, where you can buy in for a small amount, but then get a ton of tournament chips to throw around as you please.

meh. you are making me start to hate my friends.

Don't worry mon, I don't like the state of affairs in my home game either. I've come to terms with it by making it a $5 gambol while focusing on looking for tells in my friends, sometimes making plays I wouldn't just to see if they work. Mostly we all just play for something to do while drinking beer anyways :P