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Shark Bait

05-06-2005, 05:25 PM Post subject: Check some B&M play

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

OK, after probably the worst swing of luck in my life over the last few days, I'm starting to wonder if it's just a downswing or if I'm playing bad. After busting out at this card room I swore I'd never return. I don't know what it is, but I just can't win there. Normally it's not so bad, but this time I was not getting any cards. I was honestly only seeing aout 10% of the flops. And don't say this is too tight because I was playing the same cards that I would online and I average about 30% flops there. In the first 3 orbits I got *one* face card and I did not see one flop. Completely unbelievable. I was down over 5BB from blinds before I saw a flop. I can almost remember every hand I played because there was only about 8 of them. I'll try my best to remember them here, but I can't remember every suit.

Hand 1:
I'm MPsomething and I have pocket 9's. folded to me and I call. The rest fold, the SB completes and the BB checks.
Flop is QT8
SB checks, BB bets. Now I'm really wondering what to do here. I have an inside straight draw, but it's hardly worth going for that in an unraised pot. There are 2 cards over my 9's also. Getting a 9 may also just make things worse as it possibly completes someones straight. I fold. Is this the right move?

Hand 2:
I have 8d and 10d on the SB. Everyone folds, I complete and the BB checks. I know you may be thinking of suggesting a blind steal, but this person saw every flop, it would have been an instant call for them.

flop is 448 (no diamonds)
I bet, BB raises, I call
turn is 4
I bet, BB raises, I call
river is J
I bet, BB raises, I call

The hand I busted out on the board was AQJ99
I held QJ for 2 pair. Other guy just had ace rag. I hate getting beat like that.

In 2 hours I won 1 pot...about 5BB.

The main problem I have here is that the players at this B&M are significantly worse than the players I encounter online. But I'm winning money online (although small amounts) There are a lot of people that see every flop and there are a lot of people that just don't even know how to play. Shouldn't I be crushing a table like this? There are of course a few people at every table that know what they're doing, but it's not like I'm losing to them. I know about downswings, but I haven't ever left there with more money than I came with.

So...what do I do? Stick to online?

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

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Fnord

05-06-2005, 05:42 PM Post subject: Re: Check some B&M play

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Raise pre-flop. You have 2 dirty outs to a set in addition to your OSD. If the pot was raised this would be an easy call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Hand 2:
I have 8d and 10d on the SB. Everyone folds, I complete and the BB checks. I know you may be thinking of suggesting a blind steal, but this person saw every flop, it would have been an instant call for them.

flop is 448 (no diamonds)
I bet, BB raises, I call
turn is 4
I bet, BB raises, I call
river is J
I bet, BB raises, I call

This is B&M right? What are the stakes/rake? I chop here in games smaller than 10/20. Check/call the river. Fold the flop if you have a good read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

The main problem I have here is that the players at this B&M are significantly worse than the players I encounter online. But I'm winning money online (although small amounts) There are a lot of people that see every flop and there are a lot of people that just don't even know how to play. Shouldn't I be crushing a table like this? There are of course a few people at every table that know what they're doing, but it's not like I'm losing to them. I know about downswings, but I haven't ever left there with more money than I came with.

Fewer hands/hour and worse player is going to make for a lot of losing sessions. Also consider the rake. However, these games are quite fun and profitable. Just don't try to hard to run them over, they call way too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-06-2005, 06:08 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 481

Stakes were 2/4. I play higher stakes here than online because this is as low as they go and I find it's worth it for the fun. I have to admit that I still did have some fun, even though I lost a good chunk of change.

Looking back on hand 2, this person was almost always a check/caller. seeing them raise consistantly, I probably should have just check called on the turn and river. Something was telling me they wouldn't have raised me with 2 pair on the flop.

Also the rake is somewhat of a factor. At this B&M the 2/4 rake is 10% at ultimate bet it's 5%. And recently I started tipping the dealer if I was doing ok. The dealers got nothing from me this time!

ChezJ

05-06-2005, 06:14 PM

#4 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

do you seriously believe 2 hours at B&M (about 60 hands) has any statistical significance whatsoever?

Fnord

05-06-2005, 06:21 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Good luck beating the rake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Also the rake is somewhat of a factor. At this B&M the 2/4 rake is 10% at Ultimate Bet it's 5%. And recently I started tipping the dealer if I was doing ok. The dealers got nothing from me this time!

You should tip the dealer a buck on any non-trival pot. The bigger you play the less of a problem this is. You really should be playing at least 4/8 live. Over here, that's a 10% up to $3 rake, plus $1 jackpot drop, plus $1 tip = $5 comming out of most pots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-06-2005, 06:31 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

do you seriously believe 2 hours at B&M (about 60 hands) has any statistical significance whatsoever?

No, but I've never won any money there out of all the times I've gone and I've never lost this much before either.

From your comments fnord, it sounds like you're saying I need to be playing where the rake is only 5% and I certainly don't have the 'roll for 4/8. I guess this means no more B&M for me. Not a problem...the place gives me nightmares now.

Fnord

05-06-2005, 06:35 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

From your comments fnord, it sounds like you're saying I need to be playing where the rake is only 5% and I certainly don't have the 'roll for 4/8. I guess this means no more B&M for me. Not a problem...the place gives me nightmares now.

The rake is still 10% in most 4/8 games. It just caps out a lot faster.

I don't think a 2/4 game can be beat for more than minimum wage unless you have a massive skill edge. The rake is just too high relative to the bets. Also, you really want to chop when the rake is that darn high. You just don't have enough of an edge and playing out blind v blind slows down the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

05-06-2005, 08:05 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Yup, and if your neighbour won't chop-chop with you, then my usual response is to raise them , and then use aggression to take their money that they could have saved had they just cooperated in the first place

Even in $10/20 B&M games that I play in, most people will routinely chop just to save time and avoid paying a rake in a heads-up situation. This 'avoid paying rake' reasoning is flawed (the 10% to $3 rake caps out pretty quickly in these game obviously), but if most people at the table are chopping I will too. However, at any limit higher than this, I'm presuming that if I've got a good hand, I not going to be to be chopping.

Fnord

05-06-2005, 08:09 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I'm presuming that if I've got a good hand, I not going to be to be chopping.

I thought it was bad form for your hand to dictate if you want to chop. I always chop and if I don't chop for some reason (like at tight 6/12+ table) I clearly tell the dealer "I'm not chopping anymore" before my blinds come up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-06-2005, 08:27 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I doubt they would have agreed to chop. They had the 4 :-\

pillsbarry

05-06-2005, 09:54 PM Post subject: chop it

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 11

fnord is right..most of the time ..everyone chops....i had a guy who was in the sb with red aces....he still offered to chop..but wanted to make sure i did..just in case i had something for the bad beat..but..he still chopped...it keeeps the game half-ass friendly and can be used to your advantage later..more than a few times ..i had a guy next to me..whom i chatted with..when he had the monster,,he would show me before i would commit another bet ...it was always heads up....so he saved me some money...i have done the same in return..only after getting in a few raised before the river......

Fnord

05-06-2005, 09:58 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Great point. Don't be the table asshole. Don't show up to your local 4/8 (or whatever) game with sunglasses and an Empire poker blazer. Don't give some poor sap who came for a good time a 1 min stare down before mucking. The most profitable tables are full of laughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerlearner

05-06-2005, 10:46 PM Post subject: here is my 2 cents

#13 (permalink)

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Location: california

Posts: 366

Since the experts have commented, i will just like to add something. Again, my comments should be taken with a grain of salt

. I am not an expert and currently a loser in 5000 hands !!

I had the same problem in B&M. In partypoker, when you raise, rarely does the WHOLE table call you to see the flop. If you are in late position and you raise, i have still seen a few people drop out after they had called one bet.

No such luck in our b&m. You raise, and 8 out of 9 people call the bet even if you are UTG.

if the board is broadway paired, be very careful (i learnt the VERY hard way...people play A-rag, K-rag, Q-rag...all the time).

I would assume that the way to beat those games is to play suited-connectors and A-x, k-x, q-x suited a lot more often, even if it means out of position (provided it is passive). my table was, but i was ramming and jamming my AA, KK and QQ even on a paired board.

Ah, the expensive lessons you learn. !!

Demiparadigm

05-07-2005, 12:36 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

It is typical in my 40/80 game for players to chop the blinds until there are less than 6 players. (then the blinds come around too often.) Also, at 20/40 and higher you are charged "time" instead of "rake," So even though rake is not an issue, it is typical to just move on to the next hand. (there is also no bad beat jackpot)
At the lower linits (6/12 and lower) I will often fold on the button with all but a premium hand, instead of attempting a blind steal. I think it is better to keep the game going and fun than to try to extract the max from small +EV situations.

Did this thread just get hijacked?

Quote:

I'm MPsomething and I have pocket 9's. folded to me and I call.

Quit open limping. I almost always raise as the first one into a pot. If you can't raise, it may not be worth opening with.

Quote:

Flop is QT8
SB checks, BB bets. Now I'm really wondering what to do here. I have an inside straight draw, but it's hardly worth going for that in an unraised pot. There are 2 cards over my 9's also. Getting a 9 may also just make things worse as it possibly completes someones straight. I fold. Is this the right move?

Good fold. If you had raised pre flop, call or raise.

Quote:

Why not check call the river?

My biggest advice is to play at the highest limits you can afford to in B&M.(If you are a winning player) If you don't have the bankroll for at least 4/8, stick to online until you do. It is harder for me to beat the rake at 3/6 than 6/12 or 10/20.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Legendash

05-07-2005, 10:04 AM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Crypto 6max 100NL

Posts: 611

I've not played B&M, can someone explain this chopping blinds thing please.

"[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."

Copyright, Youngdro 2007.

ChezJ

05-07-2005, 06:16 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

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home game last night. guy says he always chops, even with aces. later on he was dealt aces in the sb and he proved it by chopping. we ran it out and he would have had quad aces. about an hour later he chopped with kk and would have flopped a set.

i am also of the mindset that if the bb doesn't agree to chop, i'm raising him out of spite.

Fnord

05-07-2005, 07:20 PM

#17 (permalink)

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I don't think I'd chop in an unraked game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-08-2005, 03:07 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quit open limping. I almost always raise as the first one into a pot. If you can't raise, it may not be worth opening with.

I just find it so odd to be raising with somewhat weak pocket pairs.

Well, after I folded the pocket 9's, the turn and river were both 9's. Combined with the fact that the other two in the hand were raising the hell out of eachother, I was just sick.

Fnord

05-08-2005, 04:18 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

I just find it so odd to be raising with somewhat weak pocket pairs.

Your opponents don't know this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-08-2005, 05:26 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: 481

OK so pretend I raised preflop with 99. 2 cards over my 9's on the flop and someone bets. Then I call? Then another card on the turn that's not a 9...and the same person bets...fold?

Fnord

05-08-2005, 06:38 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

OK so pretend I raised preflop with 99. 2 cards over my 9's on the flop and someone bets. Then I call?

Fold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

05-08-2005, 06:43 AM

#22 (permalink)

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I make a lot of money playing med pairs fast

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with 9

, 9

.
1 fold, Fnord raises, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Fnord calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2

, 6

, 7

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, CO bets, SB calls, Fnord raises, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (10 BB) J

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 9h 9c (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with 9

, 9

.
4 folds, Fnord raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 2

, 5

, 6

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins 5.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 9

, 9

.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Fnord raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 2

, 5

, 3

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 5

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 6

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 9.66 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 9h 9s (two pair, nines and fives).
BB has Ah Jh (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 8

, 8

. UTG+2 posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, UTG+2 (poster) checks, Fnord raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2

, 4

, 6

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord bets, SB folds, BB raises, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3

(4 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K

(4 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 9c Ad (high card, ace).
Fnord has 8d 8c (one pair, eights).
CO doesn't show.
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: Fnord wins 9.50 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 8

, 8

.
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9

, 2

, 3

(3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Fnord calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) 5

(3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Fnord raises, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins 8.16 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

05-08-2005, 07:22 AM

#23 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

not fair, all but one of those flops were below your pair.

Shark Bait

05-08-2005, 01:39 PM

#24 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Finally got those quad 9's...too bad at such low stakes!

I believe I played this more like you were saying...I raised as UTG instead of just calling. Slightly different since no one folded to me. I bet you wish you had callers like this at 3/6.

On the turn I was thinking...please no hearts or diamonds PLEASE! then I saw it was a diamond and I was like aw shit, set busted again. Then I noticed it was a 9.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9

, 9

.
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9

, K

, 8

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
Button has Ks 6d (two pair, kings and nines).
BB has 8s Tc (two pair, nines and eights).
Hero has 9s 9c (four of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.

ChezJ

05-08-2005, 05:59 PM

#25 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

on several occasions i have raised 88 or 99 because i felt it was the best hand before the flop. the raise was both for value and fold equity. then when the flop came ace high, it was checked to me, i bet, and everyone folded.

however the biggest pot of my life was when i capped with 99 from EP in a super-loose 2/4 game, *8* people went to the flop, i hit my set then rivered a boat against a straight and a flush. 43.75 BB or $172 after the rake.

ChezJ

Shark Bait

05-09-2005, 04:36 AM

#26 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Believe it or not, I just got these 2 in a row. Preflop re-raiser was same person both times. My only question now...did I do the right thing by calling the re-raise, or should I have capped?

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8

, 8

.
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2

, K

, 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins 6 BB.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7

, 7

.
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 9

, 9

, 7

(3 players)
Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 7d 7c (full house, sevens full of nines).
Button has Jc Ah (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.20 BB.

I'm guessing he was frustrated with all my betting and didn't believe that I had something 2 hands in a row. Truth is I had the boat both times.

Now a lot of this is luck, but raising like you guys have said has put more money into a pot that I'm likely to win, which I think is what it comes down to.

Fnord

05-09-2005, 04:56 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

My only question now...did I do the right thing by calling the re-raise, or should I have capped?

Call, (check)/raise any favorable flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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