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silverfist
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02-09-2006, 07:56 PM
Post subject: Check-Raising Draws
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 341
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Draws heads up out of position are always weird for me. This is my standard play, and it works less often than I'd like. Basically, I go for the check-raise if I'm not the raiser, then bet the turn. If my opponent is still there when the dust settles, I'll often have hit. At least, that's the theory. How do other people like to do these draws out of position? The alternative, I'd think, is to bet this flop outright.
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Silverfist is UTG+1 with A , 4. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, Silverfist calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) checks, CO raises, 3 folds, Silverfist calls, MP2 folds.
Flop: (6.40 SB) 8, 2, 6 (2 players)
Silverfist checks, CO bets, Silverfist raises, CO calls.
Turn: (5.20 BB) 4 (2 players)
Silverfist bets, CO calls.
River: (7.20 BB) J (2 players)
Silverfist checks, CO bets, Silverfist calls.
Final Pot: 9.20 BB
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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For this particular hand, your flop raise is a bluff. There is no other reason to raise here but to get your opponent thinking you hit the flop hard. regardless of whether you had raised the flop or not, a turn bet is a good idea because with your pair of 4s you usually will have the best hand here .... plus the good chances of improving on the river. A raiser is much more likely to have 2 high cards than to have a high pair. On the river, it's a tough call. If your opponent is likely to interpret your bets as bluffs and your check as weakness, a call may be slightly better than even. Usually though, you are beat and should fold the river. Calling the river you are basically hoping your opponent has something like KQ or KT.
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silverfist
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 341
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Technically, it's a semi-bluff  . I'm going to have to defend my river call here, though. He's a preflop raiser and the board is covered in junk, so he was probably bluffing that flop and calling with A-high on the turn. If he had an overpair, he'd probably raise the turn here. Given my sudden weakness on the river, there's a good chance he's bluffing. I only need to be right about 12% of the time to call this down, and I'd say I'm ahead about 1/3 of the time in this case. Unless he has a jack, I'm in good shape.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I'd probably fold preflop.
In his book Barry Greenstein mentions a play he sometimes likes to make in limit holdem where he check-calls the flop, then check-raises the turn when he flops a draw like a flush or open-ended straight draw. The idea is that check-calling, and then check-raising is a much stronger play than just check-raising the flop, which a lot of players will do with a wide range of hands in these situations, and you give yourself another way of winning the pot aside from improving to the best hand. Although I rarely do this, it seems like a viable strategy against tight opponents who will fold a pair on the turn facing that level of strength.
Was the cutoff a passive timid player? I'm having trouble putting him on a hand. Would he actually chase overcards on the turn with no other outs? Unless he's extremely cautious, I'd expect him to raise on the flop or turn with an overpair, so he must just have high cards. What was your impression of this guy, and what were you putting him on during the play of this hand?
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I'd probably fold preflop.
In his book Barry Greenstein mentions a play he sometimes likes to make in limit holdem where he check-calls the flop, then check-raises the turn when he flops a draw like a flush or open-ended straight draw. The idea is that check-calling, and then check-raising is a much stronger play than just check-raising the flop, which a lot of players will do with a wide range of hands in these situations, and you give yourself another way of winning the pot aside from improving to the best hand. Although I rarely do this, it seems like a viable strategy against tight opponents who will fold a pair on the turn facing that level of strength.
Was the cutoff a passive timid player? I'm having trouble putting him on a hand. Would he actually chase overcards on the turn with no other outs? Unless he's extremely cautious, I'd expect him to raise on the flop or turn with an overpair, so he must just have high cards. What was your impression of this guy, and what were you putting him on during the play of this hand? |
This is a good play at about the 3/6, 5/10 level of play, but in the 1/2 and lower games I found that the players weren't smart enough to even fold bottom pair vs a turn raise often times, so I think it's smarter to play draws more straightforward at the lower limits.
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Mike_Ann
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 61
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Silverfish, some of the trick you learn from the good book just can't apply for low Limit. Simply b/c when you try to semi-bluff. the value of the bet still too small for most players eyes in low Limit. The more you trick them they'll call you with anything.
Bluff or semi-bluff only good at 3/6 Limit and above. low limit simply just best out your best hand. Don't try bluff too much. You'll end up losing in the long term with all the bluff and semi-bluff at low limit.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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OP: I play that completely entirely different. I see people playing it the way you did and I laugh at them. They're so royally fucked when they miss 80% of the time. Youre putting too much money into the pot.
I donkbet the flop. I generally C-bet the turn, and check/fold the river if it gets that far.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
They're so royally fucked when they miss 80% of the time.
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Who taught you math? Flush has ~35% to win or so and he adds another 5 outs on the turn to win. The river play is pretty questionable. He may fold a weaker hand more often than you'll get him to bluff.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Florida public school system. Its not even approachign "Good", and my math doesnt even begin to approach "bad". My grammar, spelling, and English, in general, owns yours, though 
. So, let me rephrase and say, "I thank them when they miss 65% of the time." Granted, they pick up some folding equity... might make up for it.
I still donkbet.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
It's not even approachign "Good", and my math doesnt even begin to approach "bad". My grammar, spelling, and English, in general, owns yours, though .
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My proofreading pwns yours.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Who proofreads posts on FTR for apostrophes in contractions?
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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I have seen this play work at the lower limits, but make sure you have overcards to the board.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Who proofreads posts on FTR for apostrophes in contractions?
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That's the point I was trying to make. You mentioned to someone "My grammar, spelling, and English, in general, owns yours, though", so I posted what I thought was an equally inane statement.
But by the fact that you posted this response to me I clearly misunderstood the intent of your orginal statement (and looking back I now see how your statement was relevant and mine just inane). So instead of starting a pointless argument, I'll apologize for my post and leave it at that.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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I wonder if you make the same play with an over on board?
Yesterday, I faced a situation where I PFR KQs in the CO and got
HU w bb.
I flopped my K and he flopped a flush draw w/ OP's exact hand - A4s.
He waited for the turn to cr me, and w/ no read, I just called.
The river brought him the 4, so he check-called my value bet on the river.
Overall, I thought it was a pretty dumb play on his part.
I just don't like to get fancy w/ draws out of position.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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I think check raising draws in low limit games is almost worthless.
This is a slightly different situation, and not quite as bad. regardless, just check/calling may win the most/lose the least. Especially when your opponent will bet overcards, and will never fold them.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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