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elipsesjeff
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07-06-2006, 05:13 AM
Post subject: Check-Raised on River Line
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I'm seeing a lot more of opponents going for the check/raise on the river with a monster hand even after you've checked behind the turn.
Consider villain is a TAG in Shorthanded aggressive games:
Hero has AT
Hero raises preflop from MP and gets called by TAG BB, 30/20 type stats
Flop: JT8
BB checks, Hero Bets and BB calls.
Turn: J
BB checks, Hero checks as he doesn't want to have to call so much to go to showdown and villain is capable of check-raise semibluffing on turn with draw. Also, our hand has showdown value and doesnt need improvement.
River: 3
BB checks, Hero bets, now thinking his hand is good and BB raises. Hero calls to see villain has QJ, monster.
I've seen this a half-dozen times today, are we ever good enough on the river to call the check raise against TAGs or decent players? So far I'm like 0-6 lol.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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are they finally learning?
On an obvious board like that perhaps we arent but what about if this board was simply JTx turn x river x ?
thats a more difficult choice imo.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Does our river bet have any value against a tag?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Does our river bet have any value against a tag?
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how often do you show down 3rd pair or worse here for one bet in the bb?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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He could have a T with a lower kicker, A9, an 8 peeling one that may peel another one. He could have a bunch of hands really.
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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I bet the turn and call down a c/r.
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 275
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Fine 6high nice to know your line, but maybe a little more thought process would be nice.
Anywyas I also bet this turn. The board is very cordinated the turn paired the J and I thus there is a lesser chances that our opponent is holding a J.
I'm not giving a freecard on this board, since our hand is vulnerable to soo many cards that I prefer to bet it out when I still think I'm ahead and I'd rather face the turn check/raise and then go from there. The pot is small and I want him to make a bad call with a gutshot or with a low pair.
I do think I call this one down vs. Aggressive opponents.
Your river definately has value as any 9 is Calling. I could see A8 taking it to showdown aswell.
I think the river C/R is where we need to play poker. Many a times even if I wanna fold I call vs. unknown or guys whom I don't know wether they can bluff check/raise. I take note on their holdnings and the info I gained helps me not cry too much about the money it costed me.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 6high
I bet the turn and call down a c/r.
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That wasnt the question. The question was:
Quote:
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I've seen this a half-dozen times today, are we ever good enough on the river to call the check raise against TAGs or decent players?
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And to make the question make a lil more sense add with it: after checking behind the turn. Thus, Checking behind the turn is a given, you cant change givens!!
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 275
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As stated if I have any doubt wether my opponent is capable if a bluff c/r then I look him up here.
the value of the information and the chance of snapping of an odd bluff makes it worthwhile IMO.
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 6high
I bet the turn and call down a c/r.
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That wasnt the question. The question was:
Quote:
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I've seen this a half-dozen times today, are we ever good enough on the river to call the check raise against TAGs or decent players?
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And to make the question make a lil more sense add with it: after checking behind the turn. Thus, Checking behind the turn is a given, you cant change givens!! |
It may be a given, but you're losing more value by not betting the turn that by calling the river c/r.
As for your question: it doesn't matter whether you're ever good but whether you're good 1:5. IMO. Not against a TAG.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I just had an almost identical experience. I raised A-T offsuit in the cutoff (6-max game), big blind calls. Flop is Q, Q, K rainbow, check, bet, call. Turn blank, check, check. River A, check, bet, raise, call, opponent shows K-Q.
While it's probably true that this line is rarely done with strong hands, I think it's even more rarely done as a bluff.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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so we check behind or bet/fold?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
so we check behind or bet/fold?
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I think bet-fold without a specific read that opponent check-raises the river as a bluff, or unless the pot is somehow huge.
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