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ChezJ
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12-06-2004, 07:17 PM
Post subject: Check in the dark on the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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One new play I have been experimenting with in my live home games is checking the flop in the dark whenever I'm first to act, either because I'm SB or because I've RPF'd and the players before me folded out.
Obviously you cannot do this online, but in a live game, it can be quite useful for many reasons:
1. Your opponents have no idea whether you connected with the flop, so they don't know if they are behind or ahead. They become confused and the value of their position declines.
2. Meanwhile, you can spend your time studying their reactions to the flop and betting actions, since you are now last to act. You have essentially stolen the button for this betting round!
3. If you hit the flop (or have premium pockets), you can check-raise to protect your hand with a double bet.
4. If you hit the flop (or have premium pockets) but it's checked around, you can open the turn with a bet from EP to protect your hand with a double-sized bet.
5. If you totally miss the flop, you may get a free card because your opponents check in fear of your check-raise.
6. If you miss the flop but have a draw w correct pot odds (e.g. overcards), you can call one bet w/o looking weak. (It's clearly weak to check-call, but not so much if your check was in the dark.)
Occasionally you may give a free card on the flop with the best hand, only to get sucked out on the turn. But when this happens, it's often pretty obvious and you can quickly fold, especially since the pot is smaller than usual by this point.
So far, this technique has been very effective in protecting hands, growing pots when I'm ahead, and striking fear into the hearts of my weaker opponents. I can't recall being burned badly on the few times I've given a free card on the flop. But I will update you as my live games continue. I only play 1-2 live games per week so I admittedly don't have a long baseline of experience yet.
Just wanted to throw this out there and get your reactions.
ChezJ
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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i don't see why you say this doesn't work online...
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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I have trouble understanding why anyone would choose to make a decision without complete information. Good players see through this move, and it offers them a huge advantage. Bad players, well they're bad, so I'm not really worried about confusing them.
I saw a guy check a pair of tens in the dark in a live tourney when he was reraised preflop. He ended up spiking a ten on the flop, but I think it would be a terrible move since his opponent most likely held two overcards. Why wouldn't you want the chance to protect your hand to an undercard flop in that scenario?
Besides the problem of making a decision without complete information, I think it has the potential to become a tell.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i don't see why you say this doesn't work online...
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it doesn't work because your opponents don't know you checked in the dark. all they see is you checking, which is normally interpreted as weak.
in a live game, checking in the dark is often interpreted as, "i don't give a fuck what the flop is, i have a hand that needs no improvement and i DARE you to bet so i can checkraise your ass."
with regard to tells, one of the points i forgot to make in the list of advantages is that your opponents cannot get a physical read on you based on your reaction to the flop, because you checked without seeing it.
if you are weak in the physical tell department (as i admittedly am), then checking in the dark prevents your opponents from seeing that "aha, he missed the flop" or "aha, he flopped that ace." they have to act completely blind and risk getting checkraised by me. and i can concentrate on reading THEIR tells since they are now prematurely "under the gun."
hope that helps.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I think a trick like this would be more effective in NL, where post-flop trickery pays off and you don't really want to be pushing big pairs out of position unless the pot is already big.
In Limit, I'd rather bet out after a PFR and hope they fold.
Although, I might check in the dark when making a LHE blind defense. Then again, it would make my default strat in these situation even more transparent...
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i guess i should expand a little more on where this whole idea came from.
the whole issue is, how do you compensate for the inherent disadvantage of being in EP, particularly if you are the RPF'er? if you RPF'd, everyone expects you to bet whether you hit the flop or not. but if you do hit the flop, you aren't going to protect your hand by betting out. in fact, you may get raised, ruining your protection because now everyone has odds to draw.
the only real advantage of being in EP is that you can checkraise with a strong hand. but if you check-raise from EP every time you hit the flop, you become predictable and nobody will take the bait. so sometimes you have to check when weak as well. either way, you know you're checking, so why even bother waiting to see the flop? just check in the dark, throw some confusion into your opponents, and use the extra time to study your oppoenents' tells. as i said before, you go from being in worst position to being on the button, at least for one round.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
the whole issue is, how do you compensate for the inherent disadvantage of being in EP, particularly if you are the RPF'er? if you RPF'd, everyone expects you to bet whether you hit the flop or not. but if you do hit the flop, you aren't going to protect your hand by betting out. in fact, you may get raised, ruining your protection because now everyone has odds to draw.
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Because you're getting incredible bluff equity on your bet in most cases. Either via picking up the pot on the flop or setting up a turn bet to pick it up.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
as i said before, you go from being in worst position to being on the button, at least for one round.
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Not really, because your check offers up a free card unless you know that they will bluff at you.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I still don't get the check in the dark.
What, you can't remember your hole cards? Or do you close your eyes so you can't see the flop at all?
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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I use the check in the dark sometimes. Especially when I want to get a better read on my opponent. But it's not one to use every time.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
What, you can't remember your hole cards? Or do you close your eyes so you can't see the flop at all?
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Hehe. No, it just means that before the dealer actually turns the flop, you announce that you're checking it.
I think I agree with fnord that the advantages mostly accrue in NL games.
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HeavyP
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 187
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Most people that check in the dark do so with pockets 2-7. Infact, I've never seen it done without those.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
with regard to tells, one of the points i forgot to make in the list of advantages is that your opponents cannot get a physical read on you based on your reaction to the flop, because you checked without seeing it.
if you are weak in the physical tell department (as i admittedly am), then checking in the dark prevents your opponents from seeing that "aha, he missed the flop" or "aha, he flopped that ace." they have to act completely blind and risk getting checkraised by me. and i can concentrate on reading THEIR tells since they are now prematurely "under the gun."
hope that helps.
ChezJ
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But it becomes a tell (perhaps a better one than a physical tell) unless you check in the dark with a wide range of hands. If you do check in the dark with a wide range of hands, I think you are giving up significant equity, since you'll often end up giving free cards to gutshots and backdoor draws.
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montyman33
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HeavyP
Most people that check in the dark do so with pockets 2-7. Infact, I've never seen it done without those.
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It's an old thread, but I figured I might revive it. David Williams, final table of the 2004 WSOP checked in the dark with pocket 5's. Did you not see that?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Regarding the issue of giving free cards, sometimes this happens. But this indicates significant weakness in everyone else's hand. If you happened to flop top pair or better, you are still protecting your hand by betting into their weakness on the turn with a double-sized bet.
Yes, it is possible that someone will catch their fifth heart on the turn, but if they had a four-flush on the flop, no bet would have folded them out anyway. So you saved yourself money by checking the flop.
Folks, it may not be your cup of tea, but I'm telling you, I do this in all my home games now and it scares the bejeezus out of my opponents.
ChezJ
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Regarding the issue of giving free cards, sometimes this happens. But this indicates significant weakness in everyone else's hand. If you happened to flop top pair or better, you are still protecting your hand by betting into their weakness on the turn with a double-sized bet.
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They don't have to make their hand. You also don't want their hand to improve enough to warrant a correct turn call. Free cards can improve backdoor flushes and straights to OESD's and four flushes, and bottom pair to two pair or trips. It's a terrible play against a large field.
Also worth mentioning is that many players will call a flop bet with almost anything, so you're missing out on bets when they take a free card.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Yes, it is possible that someone will catch their fifth heart on the turn, but if they had a four-flush on the flop, no bet would have folded them out anyway. So you saved yourself money by checking the flop.
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In that one particular instance. Now average that in with all the times you let hands that had no business seeing the turn improve enough to beat you, and you have the true value of the play.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Folks, it may not be your cup of tea, but I'm telling you, I do this in all my home games now and it scares the bejeezus out of my opponents.
ChezJ
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That's because they're not very good. You don't need fancy plays to get these people to make mistakes. There's value in the play only if it induces mistakes they would not have made.
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HeavyP
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 187
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by montyman33
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HeavyP
Most people that check in the dark do so with pockets 2-7. Infact, I've never seen it done without those.
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It's an old thread, but I figured I might revive it. David Williams, final table of the 2004 WSOP checked in the dark with pocket 5's. Did you not see that? |
I said that when people do it they have pocketpairs 2-7. So when he did it with 5's that just adds to my point.
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info_zxc
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: cali
Posts: 1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by montyman33
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HeavyP
Most people that check in the dark do so with pockets 2-7. Infact, I've never seen it done without those.
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It's an old thread, but I figured I might revive it. David Williams, final table of the 2004 WSOP checked in the dark with pocket 5's. Did you not see that? |
Also remember Elix Powers and the whole "He called me with jack high" deal. That was all started with a dark check before the flop, and it got that dude so mad that he called the all Powers raises in the very next hand with only a "jack high" (it was really a queen)
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Lets not do that whole "bumping two year old threads" thing here, K? Thanks
{locked}
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