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Check / Calling the river oop

  
 
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Jibalob
Old 08-15-2007, 06:41 PM     Post subject: Check / Calling the river oop #1 (permalink)  
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I've determined that one of the biggest leaks in my game is my river play when I have a made hand but not the nuts. I figured that I'm losing alot of bets when I'm first to act by check / calling the river only to find villain as opposed to bet / folding when a scare card lands without a solid read on my opponent only to find villain checking behind 50% of the time(ish).

So, I've started to try and bet/fold the river more often but I'm starting to think that some of the better players catch onto this pretty quickly and end up pure-bluff raising my river bet with any scare card. So then, I developed "he's bluffing syndrome" for about 1k hands and have found myself bet / calling the river causing me to spew more bets when I'm behind than bets I was losing by check-calling in the first place.

Obviously, this isnt always a problem if I have a good read and whatnot but its killing me in blind stealing / defense type hands when villains range is so wide.

So my question is this - when is it ok to check / call the river?

Thanks in advance for any input
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Fnord
Old 08-15-2007, 08:11 PM     Post subject: Re: Check / Calling the river oop #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibalob
So my question is this - when is it ok to check / call the river?
When your opponent will tend to bet any 2 when checked to.

Also, sometimes I do this in live games with weak showdownable hands because my opponents will regularly check behind top pair, trip!, sets! and lots of other retarded stuff they should be value betting, but call down with a lot of random crap. It's usually a check/fold although sometimes I'll look them up with a call depending on what I think they got and how they play.
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NWNewell
Old 08-16-2007, 07:18 PM #3 (permalink)  
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A draw heavy board that didn't come in by the river, when you hold a marginal hand (something like middle pair) is an ideal time to c/c the river, IMO.

If you pfr something like A T from later position and the flop comes something like J T 7 and you are called down when no over cards or draws hit by the river. It is best to just c/c. A worse hand, or missed draw, is not going to call your river bet very often. But if you check, the villian could easily think you missed your draw and try to pick it up on a bluff, or even bet thinking his Ace hit or weaker pair is good.

There are certainly other situations where a c/c ("value check") works well. But this is a pretty ideal situation for it. Generally, you simply have to ask yourself, "Will my opponent only call a river bet with a better hand, but bet the river when checked to with a worse hand?" If the answer to that question is "yes". Then you should c/c.
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Jibalob
Old 08-16-2007, 10:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the replies. I know alot of it is common sense but sometimes you overlook these things.

Exactly the kind of responses I was after, cheers!
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DrivingDog
Old 08-18-2007, 04:08 AM #5 (permalink)  
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NWNewell wrote:
A draw heavy board that didn't come in by the river, when you hold a marginal hand (something like middle pair) is an ideal time to c/c the river, IMO.

If you pfr something like A T from later position and the flop comes something like J T 7 and you are called down when no over cards or draws hit by the river. It is best to just c/c. A worse hand, or missed draw, is not going to call your river bet very often. But if you check, the villian could easily think you missed your draw and try to pick it up on a bluff, or even bet thinking his Ace hit or weaker pair is good.

There are certainly other situations where a c/c ("value check") works well. But this is a pretty ideal situation for it. Generally, you simply have to ask yourself, "Will my opponent only call a river bet with a better hand, but bet the river when checked to with a worse hand?" If the answer to that question is "yes". Then you should c/c.





--- I absolutely agree with this. As far as when to bet/call and when to bet/fold goes, if you have a strong but not great hand (e.g., TPTK) on the river you should normally bet out even when a scare card comes because there is usually a less than 50% chance that card helped your opponent and he could well call you with a worse hand. If your opponent raises you are usually beat, but note that you still have to call a raise enough to make bluffing unprofitable. For example, if the pot is 4 BB on the river and you bet (5BB), then your opponent raises (7BB), he is risking 2 BB to win 5 BB so if he is bluffing he only needs you to fold the better hand 2/5 times to show a profit with his bluff. Equally importantly, you only need to pick off a bluff 1/7 times to profit from calling his raise. If you think your opponent capable of making a river bluff-raise 1/7 or more times, then calling becomes correct.

Generally though I think it best to bet/fold a lot of rivers with a vulnerable hand like TPTK when a scare card comes, but I also try to consider meta-game issues. If I bet/folded the last time a scare card came on the river, I'll be more inclined to bet/call the next time it happens. Otherwise the whole table might start taking shots at me on the river and I don't really want that.
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