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RiverMonkey
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06-29-2005, 07:04 PM
Post subject: Caro: "Don't re-raise with Strong hands" - grain
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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The following is an excerpt from one of Caro's MCU online lectures "34th Lecture - Bonus Strategies For Extra Profit At Poker".
Usually don't reraise when you have a very strong hand and you will force opponents to call a double raise or to fold. Analysis suggests that you'll make more long-range profit by just calling and "inviting" opponents to also call.
I've heard Caro make this argument in other contexts, and I see some scenarios where this advice might apply, but I see others where I can't see the wisdom in following his advice. In fact, that advice is either flawed, or too vague to be of value.
For example, you've got pocket As, Ks or Qs and your in late middle position. The action before it comes to you was: fold, fold, raise, call. If you following Caros' advice and just call instead of re-raising with your monster pocket pair you are exposing yourself to the increased reverse implies odds associated with potentially allowing others to enter the pot for "only" two cold, plus you aren't getting more money into the pot when you've got a significant edge.
SSH recommends always re-raising with these monster hands. They state that your pre-flop edge is too large to pass on raising; this is clearly a value raise to increase your expectation. The way I see it, if this raise also thins the field thereby increasing your chance to win, then great, but the re-raise is primarily motivated by the increased expectation associated with getting more money in the pot before the flop and not to thin the field.
Is Caro claiming the opposite? Is he claiming that you have a higher expectation by just calling in these situations? You make more in the long-run by encouraging others to enter the pot for two cold instead of making them decide between folding and calling 3 cold? If that is indeed the intent of his claim, then he's either wrong, or he needs to be more specific to avoid the inevitable ambiguities associated with such a generalized statement.
Thoughts/comments? I vaguely remember Fnord posting something on this topic months and months ago but I can't seem to find the post(s).
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Does Caro specify what types of games he's talking about? At higher limits where opponents are playing usually reasonable hands, this might hold true. At lower limits where opponents will call any number of bets with any 2 cards, straightforward play gets the money. I know I'm just rehashing what's been said before, but it's important to consider these types of things in context.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Does Caro specify what types of games he's talking about? At higher limits where opponents are playing usually reasonable hands, this might hold true. At lower limits where opponents will call any number of bets with any 2 cards, straightforward play gets the money. I know I'm just rehashing what's been said before, but it's important to consider these types of things in context.
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No he didn't mention the game conditions he was referring to. That was exactly my point. In that article he didn't paint enough context for that statement to have any application value. It's just too easy for people just learning the game to misinterpret and misapply his advice.
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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The biggest benefit I see in playing - say AA - like this is that you're hiding your strength and if you hit a favorable flop you can wait on the action before you and make a bigger raise because the pot is larger. But I don't think I'd adopt this play because, as we know, these hands are too vulnerable when playing against multiple ops. I can appreciate a hidden monster but I would just as soon get it to HU and dominate a good hand vs. playing against 78s and seeing the flop come 695.
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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pvfox
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: manchester
Posts: 14
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at some tables, players will call a raise with any two. by just calling a raise with
your monster hands, you're inviting players who may consider themselves to be
getting good pot odds to call as well (small pocket pairs, suited connectors etc.)
also, if you re-raise, you are giving yourself another way to win the hand eg. scare
card on the board for the original raiser who might check to you, allowing you to
take the pot.
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it's been claimed that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards will eventually reproduce the works of shakespeare. now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Nononono. Good god. The logic behind raising the crap out of AA is NOT to get bad hands to fold so you can limit the field and avoid bad beats. Ideally you want EVERY SINGLE PERSON at the table to put as many bets in the pot as you can get in there preflop. The point is that people WILL call any number of raises with hands like 87s, so you WANT as much money in the pot as possible. At a small stakes table you are not limiting your postflop action by raising and reraising AA preflop as you might be at a table with more skilled players, and that (I assume) is the point Caro is making.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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pvfox
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: manchester
Posts: 14
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if they are calling a raise with 87s then they might call a re-raise with it. you are
getting more money into the pot when you are way ahead. small pocket pairs
might also call it in the hope of hitting their set. they love to call!
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it's been claimed that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards will eventually reproduce the works of shakespeare. now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Hiding your hidden monster like a low pair hitting a set on the flop is fine, but hiding AA invites trouble. With a full table AA shrinks up a hair
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
Hiding your hidden monster like a low pair hitting a set on the flop is fine, but hiding AA invites trouble. With a full table AA shrinks up a hair
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Pre-flop you make more money with AA/KK as the number of players increase. As many players for as many bets as possible.
I'm starting to come around to the idea that cold calling with AA/KK as the second guy in the pot isn't a terrible idea depending on table texture. If you can mix that in with floats its can be an effective play to play against (semi-)aware opposition.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm starting to come around to the idea that cold calling with AA/KK as the second guy in the pot isn't a terrible idea depending on table texture. If you can mix that in with floats its can be an effective play to play against (semi-)aware opposition.
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in tight 3-6 and higher games, this seems like a winning play with good position. but I play 2-4 and lower and there's no way i'd do this.
I've watched Caro himself play 50-100 on vcpoker, and he does some pretty amazing things in that game.
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pvfox
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: manchester
Posts: 14
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i've called behind the raiser with AA on an aggressive table hoping someone might re-raise in position or bet out if they catch a bit of the flop. i've also made the same play on a passive table, knowing that if i re-raise i will just pick up the pot.
also, late in a tourney where a lot of players are in "all-in or fold" mode, flat calling with AA/KK may be the most profitable play... just don't whine like helmuth if you get outdrawn!
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it's been claimed that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards will eventually reproduce the works of shakespeare. now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
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