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RiverMonkey

02-16-2005, 06:44 PM Post subject: Cardplayer Hand Example

#1 (permalink)

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See the Cardplayer.com Daily Hand Quiz from today (below in italics).

Does everyone agree with the assesment given? I'd have to put my raising opponent on a hand like 56s, K8s or something similar in order to back off and just call the turn-raise. Typically though, I think I'd tend to put them on a KX hand where X<A, or a bluff and therefore would be tempted to re-raise their turn bet to isolate them.

Of course, it would depend on reads etc, but in lower limit games I'd have to go with my assessment above. (I know they are referring to $10-20 and perhaps that is why they give some credence to the possibility that their opponent may be slowplaying their hand)

Is this yet another example of me being over-agressive/ not giving my opponents enough credit?

Question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A $10-$20 game. After two early players limp, you raise with the A-K in middle position. The button, big blind, and limpers call. There is $105 in the pot and five players. The flop comes: 8-7-4, leaving you with two overcards. Everyone checks. The turn is the K, giving you top pair, top kicker. The big blind checks. The first early limper checks. The next early limper bets. What do you do?
Answer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call. You showed a premium hand like A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, A-K, or A-Q when you raised preflop after other players limped in. When you checked the flop (which was correct), you told the table you had A-K or A-Q, since with an overpair you would have bet. Now a king comes off on the turn and an early player bets, knowing that this helps ace-king hands you could have. His bet frequently means two pair or he was slowplaying a strong hand on the flop. Raising is a bad idea, but you have to call.

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Yeldud

02-16-2005, 07:40 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 149

A couple questions/observations that I hope the limit folks will help me out with.

Why not bet the flop to see where you stand? My thinking, by betting the flop, if you get a caller or a raise you are most likely up against a set or an overpair. I have ruled out a straight/straight draws thinking that no one came into the hand with 56 or 9T.

The turn:
I am thinking re-raise. Assuming you checked through the flop, you really have no way of knowing where you stand in this hand without rasing to see if you get any followers.

Finally, like the example indicates you showed a premium hand pre-flop, why not follow that through with a bet on the flop?

As always, thanks in advance for the input.

If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek

Fnord

02-16-2005, 07:51 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

Why not bet the flop to see where you stand?

You don't need to bet out to know where you stand. AK with that flop in a 5-way pot has shitty equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

I have ruled out a straight/straight draws thinking that no one came into the hand with 56 or 9T.

Why would you think a silly thing like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Yeldud

02-16-2005, 08:20 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

Why not bet the flop to see where you stand?

You don't need to bet out to know where you stand. AK with that flop in a 5-way pot has shitty equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

I have ruled out a straight/straight draws thinking that no one came into the hand with 56 or 9T.

Why would you think a silly thing like that?

Okay point taken. In my mind though not betting indicates that you do not have an overpair and probably AK or AQ. I guess that is why I am at .5/1.

I was thinkin no staright at 10/20 because I do not think many fish hang out at that level.

Thanks

If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek

Fnord

02-16-2005, 08:27 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

I was thinkin no staright at 10/20 because I do not think many fish hang out at that level.

Many live games at that level are softer than the Party 2/4 game.

When everyone has a clue 5-way pots almost never happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

02-16-2005, 08:50 PM

#6 (permalink)

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imo, the reason to check the flop and check the turn are horrible.

he says you correctly check, telling the table you have 2 big cards. well that's just silly. you bet precisely because you don't want your opponents to know if you have AA or AK. checking when you miss and betting when you have a overpair is a recipe for disaster. why don't you just give your opponents your playbook?

betting can also get the button to fold, buying you position and a possible free card on the turn.

the author disregards suits which is somewhat appalling too, as backdoor draws, and redraws on the turn strengthen or devalue your hand.

a player betting into you on the turn doesn't mean 2 pair. it can also mean "hmmm this guy didn't bet the flop cuz he's got nothin, i'm gonna try and steal on this scare card."

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 09:12 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Great point hyper, at first I was questioning if what i thought was right....but, why not raise the turn here? What kind of passive crap are they teaching?

Are you really supposed to play live like that? Compare this hand to a normal 10/20 Party game, what do you do?

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Yeldud

02-16-2005, 09:16 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Jeff:

What is your take on the flop - check or bet?

You can see my thoughts above, but Fnord makes a very valid point that I did not think about.

If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 09:18 PM

#9 (permalink)

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BETT!!!! Let them think you have the nuts until they tell you you dont.

My AKo numbers though are VERY sketchy and are something I need to work on. However, I am still very surprised what this guy is saying.

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RiverMonkey

02-16-2005, 09:26 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Thanks Hyper ... I agree with your assessment too!

It's re-freshing to see that others also think that the card-player advice seems to be advocating fairly passive/weak play. In some games, what they suggest might be a good strategy, but in the games I've played in (mostly B&M $4/8) ... my somewhat limited experience tells me otherwise.

FLOP
------
I'd raise that flop too. If I get re-raised on the flop, it's time to re-assess/slow down and start considering that you are up against a set or str8. However, they could just be trying to get me to do exactly that so that they get a free look at the river card - IMHO, that's where reads can be very important! You have to ask yourself: Is this the type of tricky player to make that free-card play?

TURN
------
If I get called on my flop raise, and that K comes on the Turn, why slow down now? I've hit one of my cards and my hand has strengthened ... I'd bet that mutha again too! With the limper raising first (as in the example), I re-raise. If I get a re-raise in return ... I've learned something and again might need to slow down and check call to the river; again, I might start thinking I'm up against a set or that str8.

Now interestingly enough, if you exchange 'limper' for one of the 'blinds' being the Turn aggressor, I'd have more of an apriori inclination to think that I might be up against a set or str8.

I'm always amazed when it comes to a showdown and I show TPT(G)K and everyone else (sometime 2 or 3 others for crying out loud) quietly muck their hands and don't show their crap. It's un-F@#$-believable! What were they thinking/calling me down with? Now, I fully recognize that this probably doesn't happen (as often) at the $10/20 level.

Thoughts/comments?

Ayce

02-16-2005, 09:32 PM

#11 (permalink)

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I'd bet the flop, it generally thins down the field, and then if I got a raise on the turn and had no reads I'd likely just call. I am quite prepared to spend two BB for the information on a player's style.

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 09:33 PM

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Pretty good analysis.

I'll add one thing. On a flop of all under cards, with a person raising preflop. If you hold a PP like 66 in this situation and it is HU, I'm calling down. Usually works best when the raise is after me. Only because, a raisor is more likely to have two over cards than a large PP (sans any reads/numbers on the guy) and your 66 will win more often than not. I used to fold this hand HU when facing a raisor. But, especially if the raiser has position on you, he will give away his hand. Taking a free turn card (checking the flop in this situation) are all indices that he has no hand. If they beat you, they beat you, but thats also how you wouldn't show them your cards.

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Fnord

02-16-2005, 09:45 PM

#13 (permalink)

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I probably would bet out here, but I agree with the check. Either way this pot isn't likely to be pushed in your direction.

Given that the button cold called 2, he's probably not the type to bet out or fold so take your free card. If I think I can fold out the button then I'm more likely to bet so I can check behind unimproved on the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

02-16-2005, 09:51 PM

#14 (permalink)

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The other thing to keep in mind is that B&M players pay more attention to stuff like how you play missed over-cards. They will adapt and start c/ring and calling down if you always pound away. Hence, I'm more inclined to slow down in a spot like this so when I bet later in a better spot I'm more likely to thin the herd.

I usually want them to think I'm the most boring weak/tight player at the table. Mostly, because that kind of play works well against the bad players and it sets up bluffs that are more likely to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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