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can you fold AA to this?

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Chopper

09-04-2006, 04:19 AM Post subject: can you fold AA to this?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

supposedly, knowing when to fold AA is a good thing, but at 1/2 i wonder if you should ever do it? anyway, it is still a money saver if you can do it correctly.

basic hand here, no need to convert one...

no reads, literally 2nd hand at table. i am in SB and, obviously, dealt AA. EP2 limps, CO raises, I 3-bet, and EP2 folds. CO calls.

Flop comes 8 J K rainbow. I bet, CO raises, I 3-bet, CO just calls.

Turn comes J giving 2 spades. I check, CO bets, I call.

River is T non-spade. I check, CO bets, I call.

CO shows JJ for flopped set, turned Quads.

i dont care about picking up on the quads, but can anyone lay down the AA on the flop here, or was i right in check calling UI the rest of the way?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Shark Bait

09-04-2006, 04:50 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

no, you want to bet the turn too.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

bigspenda73

09-04-2006, 04:53 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

I don't lay it down, but I do not 3bet this flop. HU you cannot lay aces down here, just take your medicine and call down. Its too easy for CO to have AK, KQ, AJ here. Once again, I do not fold, but I do not expect to win this pot the majority of the time, however, once you get to the turn the pot is already 7BBs and you'll have to call 2 more BBs to win a 11BB pot. So you have to be right only once out ouf every 5.5 times. All that means, I call down.

Oh by the way, the smooth call on the flop scares me more than a cap b/c he has position and he raised the flop. Therefore I wouldn't want to lead this turn either way.

Final question, why didn't you bet the turn? If you were willing to 3bet this flop wouldnt you want to lead the turn.

Chopper

09-04-2006, 05:14 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

that's kind of why i posted the scenario. i never expected anyone to say, "great hand. i play it the same way." this hand has holes all through it, and that's where i need the help.

but to be honest, i had a feeling there was a J out there. not quads, but maybe trips. either way, i am way behind. my cards have not been running well at all lately, either, and i generally give too much credit for a hand after playing over at the crypto's.

where did all those "chaser/rocks" come from?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

midas06

09-04-2006, 05:50 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: NZ

Posts: 2,196

bigspenda, not 3 betting this flop will lose you money over the long run.

arkitekton

09-04-2006, 06:03 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

With no reads I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise, though if the J made you nervous, check calling the way you did is fine--at a new table I suppose there's some point specifically to not folding to aggression in an early hand, so check calling now might save you some aggravation later. The point of betting the turn, of course, is specifically to save a bet by folding if you do get raised.

I wouldn't be able to fold to the flop raise. The raise could be a lot of things--a shot with AK or QQ or even AJ to see where he's at, though once he calls your reraise and bets the turn that narrows it down some.

bigspenda73

09-04-2006, 07:13 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

bigspenda, not 3 betting this flop will lose you money over the long run.

--please explain...

Here is my take: This IS 1/2 LHE. This isnt 3/6 or 5/10 guys. This isn't a blind war, there isn't metagame, and it is CO vs. SB, not Button vs. BB. Therefore I tend to give the CO credit when he raises PF and after the flop. We are not defending our blinds here, we raised out of the SB which is always interesting. There is nothing to defend here, it's 1/4BB, so when the SB raises I tend to take notice. That being said, the CO will have a hand here more often than not.

OK, tough thing is we know the result of this hand. So let's start where we normally do, put villain on a range.
What's villain likely range,...A5+, KQ/KJ, 66-JJ. What does he raise the flop with? --AK,KJ,KK,JJ,88-- How many of those hands do we beat? Maybe Im giving villain tooo much credit. If he is LAGGy he can raise PF with QTs/KTs/9Ts/JTs and raise the flop.

Side note: why is everyone so content w/ 3betting flops. I just do not understand that play. I think there is so much more value to be gained on the turn if your post flop play is good. Maybe this is a major leak in my game but I cannot remember the last time I 3bet a flop. Maybe it's good here cuz we're OOP, but can we really expect villain to check the turn behind if we smooth call the flop and check the turn?

All in all-villains line screams a set, I now decide that I lay down the turn. However, seeing how it took 3 minutes to analyze the hand and you get 15 seconds online, I probably donate 2 more BBs to him by calling him down....so tough to fold aces, even when u know ur screwed.

kyc12

09-04-2006, 03:36 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

but to be honest, i had a feeling there was a J out there. not quads, but maybe trips. either way, i am way behind. my cards have not been running well at all lately, either, and i generally give too much credit for a hand after playing over at the crypto's.

I somtimes feel that way too. But being HU, it's best to ignore your (or mine, for that matter) "intuition" and play your cards. You have AA and if you call down from the turn, you're getting 1 to 4.5 to call. Are you more than 80% sure that there must be a jack out there? (actually it may be closer to 85% as you may hit your 2-outer and win occasionally).

Also, I think the point of 3-betting the flop is to gain information. If you get 4-bet back, you're likely behind. If they call, and rasie the turn, they're either trapping you or they improved with the turn card. Either way your Aces are now no good. Barring maniacs of course

Nehmer

09-04-2006, 03:50 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

My rule is to never fold AA heads up. I will fold it if I am sandwiched between two or more people who are raising like mad and the board isn't good for me. I really don't understand why you checked the turn, this is pretty much a must bet.

Bigspenda, you are definately giving your opponents too much credit. You left out AJ and QJs as hands that villain might have and unless the read is specifically that he is a rock, I would probably add in your Laggy raise options as possibilities. If he truly is Laggy, you can add in quite a few more hands he might have. 3-betting is definately the way to go here on the flop. If you are even contemplating check/folding this turn, I can gaurantee you that you are folding a lot more winning hands than you should be and are taking a significant hit to your winrate because of it.

Chopper

09-04-2006, 06:33 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

thanks for the opinions.

i wondered if i should have bet out on the turn, but (and i see it all the time at 1/2) i figured he'd just call and "hide his hand." then, i have to bet the river on any apparent blank, he raises me then and gets the extra bet. problem is i dont get a lot of info by checking the turn either and give up the initiative, but i figure the aggression costs me at least one bet more.

i felt i was behind, but wasnt exactly sure, so i figure to call the AA down and try to keep it as cheap as possible. maybe i get lucky and hit my set on the river, which as it turned out i was glad i didnt. i feel i got away as cheaply as i could, which is the idea when you have a little better than marginal hand w/o much room to improve, i thought. if the J didnt pair on the turn, i keep the gas on the fire.

thats prolly too passive, and something i need to work on, but again, i see sets "slow-played" too frequently at lower limits, and for the life of me cant figure out why, especially in a limit game where you're just asking for a suckout.

the lesson i am trying to learn/"get a feel for" is when do i stay aggressive even though my intuition tells me to stop?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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